edit: it appears the quote function has stopped working...
[quote]Coming from an area that Per Capita had the EARTHS largest Meth usage.. I can say that Drugs are bad in ALL their forms..[/quote]
While I wouldn't be suprised if you have seen the destruction meth addiction can cause on the body, and the crime that comes with organized crime selling drugs, and the crimes that come with trying obtain hard to find high-priced drugs. To much of anything is a bad thing and can cause serious problems. Even water can poison you in high quantities, and many people cause massive self destruction from the quantity and quality of food they eat, but you don't see us illegalizing these things. You're not going to achieve anything by throwing a person suffering for excess or addiction into a jail cell, this is only going to thicken their addiction by increasing the depression or pain that likely turned them toward addiction. Instead I am suggesting that we treat the problem of addiction and excess as a health problem instead of a criminal problem.
[quote=Servius]Sure Heroin is an Opiate. But you seem to forget that many versions are processed with chemicals which are known to degrade chemical bonds in your DNA. Saying they dont rot your body is pretty idiotic.. as so does Codeine.. which is a Legal though controlled Medicine.[/quote]
Ok that right there is a load of dung (as pedro puts it). I challenge you to prove to me that any drug degrades the chemical bonds in your dna, particularly heroin or any other painkiller. Codiene definitely does not rot your body, that is lunacy to proclaim such a thing that all research points to otherwise. There not going to prescribe a chemical the rots your body and degrades your DNA to people who are already suffering with pain from something being rotten or degraded in their body. Furthermore, just because a "chemical" that used to "process" a drug is harmful or toxic, does not outright make the drug have the properties of that chemical. You should also consider that if illegal drugs were made in professional laboratories with legal requirements of a sanitary environment, instead of being made in shady clandestine laboratories with probably dirty and probably hard to acquire equipment, you wouldn't see harmful chemicals and adulterants getting into the mix. You wouldn't have the potentially harmful impurities that you see in today's street drugs.
[quote] Painkillers in of themselves and indeed all chemical medicines have side effects.. We are just lucky that most LEGAL Chemical Medicines dont may you pawn all your belonging to buy more and commit crimes to support the habit.. [/quote]
Every chemical has SOME side effects, but they vary for chemical to chemical. In many cases the benefits of the medicine or drug can outweigh these side-effects. I don't see any reason to demonize someone who wants to safely use a chemical to releive some anxiety or just have a good time by "getting high", as long as it's done responsibly and doesn't effect the freedoms of other people.
As stated many times, the main reason you have people pawning their belongings in desperation to get money is because of the ridiculously high cost of a fix from an illegal drug. You don't often hear of people pawning their belongings to buy a pack of ciggarettes or bottle of alchohol, now do ya?
[quote]Go live in Amsterdam for a week and take a GOOD look around..[/quote]
I don't know why you're bringing up Amsterdam. The main recreational drugs we are talking about aren't legal in Amsterdam. Yes the police turn a blind eye on marijuana and mushrooms (which are NOT legal in Amsterdam, contrary to popular myth), but the rest of the drug world is under criminal jurisdiction, just like the rest of the misguided world. However, there has been many successes in harm reduction amongst the heroin using community because of the clinics in Amsterdam that administer pure (un-adulterated) heroin to you in a safe and clean way... thus detering the spread of disease, infection and drug-dealing related crime. The world is starting to wake up afterall! (on this subject at least)
[quote]Legalizing does nothing to stop it.. Though it doesnt Hasten it.. All regulation will do is put warning labels on drugs naming sideeffects.. and warnings... Like ....Cigarettes and Alcohol! Do that actually change anything... Nope... Teen Usage of both is actually higher.[/quote]
I agree with you that legalizing does not stop drug abuse, however it will reduce any harm caused by drug use siginificantly
A. reducing our over-crowded inmate population (In California they are now releasing captured illegal aliens because the prisons are too crowded. With over 50% of American prisoners being "drug offenders" SEE: California Prisons won't hold some Illegal Immigrant Offenders
B. reducing the amount of disease that is spread (most commonly HIV and Hepatitis), by removing the restrictions on access to clean needles (we have drug-dealers charging 5 dollars for a clean needle that you can buy for pennies on the dollar at a drug store with the proper authorization), removing the rampant criminal drug trade in the ghettos, and removing adulterants and impurities in the drugs.
C. reducing the amount of overdoses which 90% of the time are caused by unpredictable strengths/purity of the drug, not knowing what drug you are actually getting (fentanyl, a MORE powerful opiate than heroin, is largely responsible for most heroin overdoses), and impurities and adulterants in the drugs...
D. reducing the amount of crime that is caused by addicts who can't get enough money to buy their expensive illegal drugs, or addicts that can't find their drugs and have to resort to extremely desperate measures (like maybe robbing a drug store).
E. reducing the amount of people suffering from addiction by offering to them the proper treatment that is needed to deal with the psychological and sociological factors that can lead to addiction, as well as offering methods of detox and rehabilitation FREE OF CHARGE (thanks to the newly acquired resources that were formerly used to arrest and imprison "drug offenders").
F. reducing the huge homicide rate within your local city, by completely snuffing out the criminal drug trade. A major source of profit and gain for the gangs that bring guns to the streets and are required to enforce ALL of their business disputes by murder (as they are living in constant fear of being snitched on, being arrested, and cannot take their problems to any kind of legal outlet for resolution).
G. creating a significantly safer environment for police officers who are faced with enforcing laws that increase the profit of a criminal economy (On one undercover tape-recorded conversation, a top cartel chief, Jorge Roman, expressed his gratitude for the drug war, calling it “a sham put on for the American taxpayer” that was actually “good for business”.) and risking their lives and jobs with raids that turn out like this one
, and have to deal with ARMED criminals on their cities streets ALL thanks to the criminal drug economy.
H. reducing the amount of armed robberies and crime that is committed on people who wouldn't otherwise be in the bad parts of town, except that they are forced to go to high crime areas and interact with criminals in order to obtain the drugs they want. A huge part of the traffic that comes in to buy drugs in city ghettos comes from people who live in suburban and well off communities. These are not all deteriorating drug addicts, but are just as likely to be someone who is looking for the only pain relief they can obtain without a prescription (herion being an opiate painkiller not unlike many prescription drugs ), or people who just want a one time party with a little cocaine.
I. removing the horrible reputation that has been generated on the black and minority communities against the police. crimes go unsolved and "un-witnessed" thanks to the reputation brought by "snitching" to the police, and many times the fear of violent repercussions from gangs for talking to the police.
J. replacing the extremely flawed drug education system that is created by law enforcement and teachers telling children that drugs are bad because they are illegal, instead of than emphasizing the real dangers that are caused by a drug. The majority of drug education is focused on alcohol and cigarettes, and this is because the education system recognizes it has an important RESPONSIBILITY to teach children the REAL dangers of the drugs that are available and used by society, as well as the safe and responsible usage of these chemicals. There is also the coolness factor that is created by telling a child he can't have a drug because it is illegal. The illegality perpetuates an environment where misinformation and exaggerated claims (which could likely be the cumulative result of the teacher's being badly educated and the lack of proper research on illegal drugs that is prohibited by the law) are given to children instead of truthful and realistic warnings and information. When these people eventually discover they were lied to, their entire education will become distrusted and dismantled, effectively leaving the person with ZERO drug education, despite any of truthfulness and legitimate warnings that might have been in their education.
K. improving our economy DRAMATICALLY, by giving us a new source of taxable merchandise. Marijuana is America's number 1 cash crop, and places like California are finally realizing this. Thanks to our rapidly self-destructing economy states like California are now realizing and turning to the legal regulation, sale, and taxation of Marijuana in attempt to boost them out of this financial crisis that has them issuing official "IOUs" in place of social security checks. Have you heard the term, never underestimate the power of an idea whose time has come? That was what happend with the abolition of slavery, and many other important advances in human civilization... Well today amidst the biggest financial crisis of our time, humankind is finally beginning to wake up to the harm reducing and profitable opportunities provided by legalizing and regulating the production and sale of formerly "illegal drugs". One can only hope California passes this legislation successfully and acts as an experimental and successful beacon that leads the way to across-the-board legalization, so that the drug problem can finally be properly healed and taken out of the hands of criminals.
[quote]Ever hear about people having children while they were under the influence of drugs such as heroin? I guess the Baby isnt a victim as it much be some sort of blessing to not be able to read until your 12 or properly control a pencil until your 10.[/quote]
See this is where we reach compromise. Now I'm not sure what the reasons for it being legal to drink alcohol while pregnant are, it is actually perfectly legal to do so. Even legal to drink your baby into total retardation. I have no idea why such child abuse is legal, but I would definitely agree that it shouldn't be. This is one of the only examples where the use of a drug can infringe on the freedoms and health of another human being, and it should be properly addressed. I'm not sure I would be opposed at all to making it illegal to use any drug that inhibits healthy childbirth while pregnant (including alcohol, which IS a drug. There is no Drugs & Alcohol, ONLY Drugs.).
[quote]What about the Family members harmed by the actions people commit while under the influence.. I have seen perfectly normal nice good hearted people get addicted to meth after a single use.[/quote]
What you are referring to are people who were irresponsible with their behavior and drug use, and are directly infringing on the health and liberties of another human being. These ARE victims that should normally be able to call the proper outlet for help with the situation, but are instead forced to deal with the destructive behavior because they are terrified that their family member will be put in jail (and they know that would be a HORRIBLE and destructive anti-solution). If drugs were legalized, and no longer a crime, and the resources that were formerly used for drug-law enforcement were directed to treating people with a drug problem, then the family and victims would have a place to call for help on the matter. No longer would they be too afraid to call the social worker for help, for fear that their relative is going to be jailed.
Furthermore, it is literally impossible to become addicted from a single use of a drug. Let's stick to facts instead of myths and propaganda.
[quote]I doubt it will make it worse.. If you want drugs. you can get them.. Most people dont want the drugs to begin with. Why would making them legal change that?[/quote]
Thank you. You are absolutely right about that. In fact, there are polls where an overwhelming majority states that they would not be any more inclined to use drugs if they were legal.
[quote]If you have kids and smoke around them you should be taken out and shot in my opinion..[/quote]
Anyone who says someone "should be taken out and shot" is going way overboard and acting extremely crude and barbaric. The idea that if someone does something you disagree with they should be killed is the philosophy of fascism. I heard a cop once say he wishes they could shoot drug users on the spot. He couldn't have sounded more like a nazi. Let's try and keep things civilized and evolved. That kind of attitude achieves nothing and only serves to justify murder. It is that kind of attitude that has people thinking... "it's ok if israel bombs a terrorist leader's infant child and entire immediate family, as long as we kill the terrorist too"... It is that kind of thinking that has the American people allowing genocide in Iraq, killing in the name of "freedom". Guess what, unless you are fighting in self defense (ON YOUR OWN SOIL) you are not fighting in the name of freedom. You cannot offensively bomb in the name of righteousness and liberty unless you are directly under attack on your soil. I really hope we someday evolve past the death penalty, and discontinue to enable people to believe that we can kill with meaning and justification beyond self defense.
[quote]Your whole Victim-less Criminal is a crock of sh*t and you know it. If you don't.. Your an idiot and shouldn't be allowed to exist. You are a vile creature from the depths of the earth expelled to bring Stupidity to the masses.[/quote]
As everyone has been saying to you, this comment is extremely vile and stupid in itself. Please cut it out and keep it civil. It sounds like your trying to get the topic closed so you can get the last word and discontinue our conversation. Is that what you're trying to do? That would be really pathetic and desperate. Passion is good, but your statement isn't passionate. It's angry and fascist.
[quote]The idea of legalizing Narcotics and Other Elicit drugs has been put down numerous times in many states, counties, and municipalitied by PUBLIC vote. So regardless of what you yourself want. is irrelevent unless you intend to take a course to change it.. Are you? Is that what all your political ranting on these limited target market message board is all about? Are you going to start a vote for change?[/quote]
Firstly you should ask yourself why this idea keeps coming up. Why it's on the table RIGHT NOW in California. What you are seeing is a mass awakening that is the next step in the evolution of human consciousness and the betterment of civilization.
Secondly, I'd think it's pretty obvious to see that I am an anti-prohibition activist, but it seems like you are directly belittling the significance of the people on this forum by claiming they are a limited target (market??? whose buying things?) as if their opinions and beliefs mean nothing.
[quote]I pity you, you are a very sad and decrepit person from my viewpoint[/quote]
How are you gonna accuse me of trolling when you are literally doing exactly that??
[quote]So you're telling me that with making drugs legal, any attempts to sell drugs outside of the controlled environment would disappear?
I mean it's not like people would want to keep on trying to make cash by selling it cheaper (and of questionable quality).[/quote]
Gimme a break, who buys homemade underground questionable alcohol or ciggarettes. The answer is NOBODY. The entire underground market would be snuffed out completely by across-the-board world-wide legalization. The most you'd have is some adults getting convinced by some curious kids to buy drugs for them. That can be enforced a hell of a lot better and easier (without causing harm to society and individual health).
[quote]It's funny how all drug related crime all of the sudden comes down to not being able to afford drugs. I mean it's not like anyone commits crime due to the influence of alchohol either...[/quote]
You're always gonna have some problems when dealing with people who are intoxicated. You are also gonna have problems from people who are completely sober. Life has problems. Life has crime. But the VAST MAJORITY of drug-related crime (by addicts) is in pursuit of money to purchase an extremely expensive and hard to obtain substance.
[quote]Proper education about alchohol and smoking seems to have a huge effect on people...[/quote]
I understand this is a sarcastic statement. The problem is that alcohol and tobacco education is completely undermined by drug education. I've explained how this works many times already. You also have to consider that there will obviously be a high concentration of experimentation with a substance if those 1 or 2 substances have been heavily ingrained in their culture as the only legally available recreational drug. With legalization you would see a higher responsibility and seriousness taken with drug education that would very likely be taken a lot more seriously when you remove the propaganda and jail threats.
[quote]I want everyone to have a free mind and not be slaves to some drug.[/quote]
I totally agree. That's why I want to live in a society that doesn't put dangerous chemicals in the hands of criminals that flood our society with all the problems that come with an illicit unregulated black market and a society that doesn't treat the health problems of substance abuse as a criminal issue, forcing our prisons to let out violent criminals and illegal immigrants who actually hurt our economy and society.
[quote]You claimed that "we have a booming industry for organized crime to make a assload of money selling drugs" which is what fuels the black market gun industry. What's more, you state it again at the end of the paragraph I've quoted. The Newsweek article proved your claim false.[/quote]
Yes I do claim both. The illicit drug industry DOES fuel the black market for guns as drug dealers/gangs are forced to use guns as a method of enforcing order and settling disputes within their industry, rather than having legal outlets to settle money/theft/cheating problems. Since the majority of street level drug dealers are between the ages of 15 and 25, it definitely doesn't quell the black market of guns to have that many kids armed and perpetuating a culture where guns are cool and a sign of power and illicit wealth.
And this whole concept of drugs not making money is completely nuts. The drug economy is one of the world largest markets. If you are curious to read a debate amongst people who've read on the subject and personally have experience you might want to read this thread
on the bluelight forum. While the lowest street level dealers may not make much money, drugs can be an almost absurdly profitable business depending on how high up your are.
[quote]By the way, we're still waiting for a link to the 15 year old shooter story[/quote]
You can wait all you want. I've decided it's not worth my time to dig through past newspapers that I don't even know how to acquire, to find a police report of multiple shootings in one of the highest shooting crimes area in the world. Is it that you need some kind of confirmation that this actually happend to me? I'd be happy to photograph my bullet-hole scars for you, if that's what you'd like. I'll hold a daemon of chaos model in my hand to prove it's actually me.
[quote]if you're going to throw big names at me why not back them up with quotes and such?[/quote]
Google "john hopkins university addiction research center" and look into their findings. You'll find what I was talking about.
I'm saying that very often, when estimating the harm caused by a drug to your health, people get the METHOD of taking the drug, confused with the actual effects of the drug itself. The methods of taking a drug can include snorting (which can potentially hurt your nose) and injecting (which can potentially **ck up your veins). However, these are not harm caused by the drug itself. If it were taken orally or in a safer way, there wouldn't be as much harm. Then as I've said many times, there are impurities in street drugs that can make them dangerous, however, these impurities are not the drug itself. The chemical that the users are attempting to obtain wouldn't have these dangerous impurities if it were legally provided by a pharmacy.
Long-term effects of heroin appear after repeated use for some period of time.Chronic users may develop collapsed veins, infection of the heart lining and valves, abscesses, cellulites, and liver disease. Pulmonary complications, including various types of pneumonia, may result from the poor health condition of the abuser, as well as from heroin's depressing effects on respiration. In addition to the effects of the drug itself[quote]
The above quote from the site you gave me, is definitely referring to the health problems and infections that happen from regular and uncleanly injection of a drug that is cut with impurities and adulterants, and not
from the effects of the pure drug itself. The poor health of the user is very likely to be the result of the depleted income of the user thanks to the ridiculously high price. How many smokers and alcoholics do you see lookin all scummy and shitty. Not very many except for a homeless person? Those addicts usually maintain relatively good hygeine, albiet may be a little stinky (with ciggs) or fat (with alcohol)...(yes I'm stereotyping.)
About the only thing on that list that is actually caused by the drug itself, would be the depressant effect on respiration. That itself is rarely a problem when the user is tolerant to the drug and is taken the same amount on a regular basis. However, because you have an illegal market, that addict could get a product that is EXTREMELY PURE, or a different and more powerful depressant altogether! That is when you suffer breathing problems that could lead to overdose. This is known as cardiac arrest (when you forget to breathe, because you took too many
[quote]Don't say that you aren't downplaying the risks but being honest, because comparing heroin to prescription painkillers is making it seem less than it actually is.[/quote]
No, comparing the actual chemical molecule of heroin to prescription painkillers is EXTREMELY accurate and honest, and no less harmful than it actually is. Prescription painkillers can be very dangerous if used in large excess, however many people depend on prescription painkillers to live life without pain. I am one of those people who suffer from incredibly delibilitating pain and wouldn't be able to walk (would be bedridden) and would likely kill themself, if they were forced to live with the excruciating pain that is being caused by something wrong in my back. Because of the drug war, I am a victim of our current policy, because not only am I treated like an addict by nearly every doctor I've seen, but I am rarely if ever given enough pain killer to eliminate all of my physical attacking pain. It's not easy living with the feeling of Knives digging into your back. For me, that is everyday life, and because of narcotic painkillers. I can sleep at night, get up in the morning and live a fully functioning life. THIS IS A CONSTANT BATTLE however to keep myself from being cut off from my medication because the doctor is terrified that they are going to be a target of the DEA. Chronic pain sufferers and the African American community are the biggest victims of Drug Prohibition. Today there are more African Americans in prison for drugs than there were slaves in America.
Exaggerating and lieing about the dangers of a drug will ALWAYS backfire when the person realizes they were lied to. This effectively erases ALL of their education. Honesty is the best policy. Why would you need anything more than honesty? To lie is to control. To control is to enslave, and directly infringes on a person's freedom.
[quote]I was at a hospital recently, and they refused to give me morphine for more than 1-2 days because they said there was a chance I might become addicted, and whatever you say I simply won't believe that the hospital was feeding me evil lies to make me afraid of drugs[/quote]
What the hospital meant was that you would be at risk of becoming dependent (not addicted). to be "Dependent" on a drug is a physical dependency, where as addiction is a mental dependency. They are roughly the same thing, however a person who is dependant but not addicted will not have to deal with things like mental "cravings" or the psychological need to self-medicate... (at least not to the same degree).
In any case, the hospital it seems was just looking out for your health. I never said that you can't become dependent or even addicted from using a drug for more than 3 days in a row.. cuz you definitely can. But in all honestly and from personal experience you probably could've handled at least 1 more day. 3 is generally said to be the limit. I wouldn't be suprised at all if there was so kind of legal pressure motivating their decision to cut off your pain killer. If you still needed it for pain relief would they still be so terrified of a cure-able dependency? This situation more or less illustrates my point about chronic pain sufferers being a casualty of the war on drugs.
[quote]I don't know what they had taken, but it had messed up their heads pretty badly (for the time being at least)[/quote]
I'm not gonna lie. Drugs are powerful and need to be taken responsibly. The illegality however fosters an environment that makes it hard for anyone to be responsible when obtaining and using drugs. A person should be more worried about their health and their surroundings than law enforcement officers.
[quote]I am quite distrustful of prescription painkillers as well (probably just paranoia, but hey!)[/quote]
I'm not suprised. There are a lot of myths and propaganda out there that does alot of damage to the reputation of pain patients. Here's a website that can help you dispell some of those myths.
[quote]Besides, cannabis is hardly "harmless". It is worse than your vaunted cigarettes (and if cigarettes are as bad as you say cannabis must be truly horrible!). It may or may not have correlation with psychosis and suchlike problems, but it still "rots your body from inside".[/quote]
Cannibus does not "rot your body from the inside", that is completely ridiculous. I don't need to go into the details of how silly that claim is. You should do the research for yourself to find out how ridiculously harmless cannibus actually is. As far as drugs go, cannibus is probably the safest of all time. Any harm that is caused to the body from cannibus is caused by the smoking part. Once again we are talking about the METHOD of TAKING the drug, and NOT the drug's effects itself. There have been several studies on the harm in smoking cannibus, and the results are that YES smoking cannibus can be harmful to your lungs as you do not have a filter on the smoke and can also inhale lighter fluids and such... However, not only are you not getting all the gun powder and carcinogens they put in cigarettes, but smoking Marijuana is not done on a daily or even nearly as frequent basis as cigarettes are. Cannibus itself does no physical harm to the body what-so-ever and can be taken via baked buttered goods or vaporized and inhaled safely. It is often the only source of pain relief for people suffering from a number of debilitating diseases. But of course the federal government likes to raid and attack these victims and their drug dispensaries (their only hope for relief). If 1 thing good comes out of Obama's Administration it is their announcement that they will now respect state drug laws. This provided the floor for California to introduce legislation to legalize cannibus.
[quote]I do not believe that your political beliefs would lead to a better society, and would even cause harm.[/quote]
There is no harm in discussing opposing viewpoints. This is how people learn and become cultured. It is through debate and discussion that real evolution and change is made. Change that can lead to a better society.
[quote]if you cannot enforce a law, is that an excuse to abandon it?[/quote]
from my perspective I believe Einstein's point was that to create a law which cannot be enforced serves as a mockery of law, and causes disrespect of the rule of law. It discredits and makes government look bad on all fronts. That is a totally accurate description of what has happened with drug prohibition.
[quote]Is it? I am still pretty convinced that drug USE would increase. I'm not too sure, but ABUSE (in my opinion there's a distinct difference) would at least stay the same.[/quote]
I agree with you there. Responsible and casual use would probably increase, but abuse would possibly stay the same. However I would argue that abuse would decrease as we'd be dismantling the massive addiction pit that is in our city ghettos and providing real solutions and alternatives to drug addiction.
[quote]if someone (like you) had convinced them that drugs aren't really dangerous[/quote]
I've NEVER said drugs aren't really dangerous, they most certainly CAN BE! Please don't misquote me. I completely disagree with your statement that the scare tactic works well, as I've said many times now, it usually backfires as you learn you been lied to. It is dangerous and irresponsible to lie and exaggerate.
[quote]if I made the donkey thing a web domain, would that change anything because there would exist some called "donkeys as our leaders"?[/quote]
The difference is that Common Sense For Drug Policy has a very large membership that agrees with the name. That at least gives it some credibility.
[quote]However, why is it illegal EVERYWHERE (except Holland lol) and why has it been kept illegal everywhere?[/quote]
In many cases countries have been forced to enforce international drug policy due to UN treaties. That is the United Nations, a world government entity that should not be deciding world policy. This is the same group that came up with the slogan "A Drug Free World - We Can Do It" in 1998 and said by a 2008 we would be living in a drug free world. Now, thanks to all the statistics that show that the drug trade has ballooned and increased dramatically and is one of the world's largest economies, the UN is so embarrassed by their propaganda war, that they DENY they ever even said it!!! (we have it on video) You can learn more about that specifically by watching War Without End
. Right now, with global bankers and the world's leaders working in collusion to establish a new "bank of the world" (as gordon brown is here trying to sell to America right now) and members of the elite like Henry Kissinger calling for a "New World Order", a one-world government admist this engineered global economic crises.... It is VERY important for us all to remember that, the SMALLER your government is, THE LOUDER your voice is heard... The BIGGER your government is, your voice is drowned in a sea, and your life is in the hands of an elitist leadership. There is a reason the American Revolution happend. There is a reason we established the constitution. There is a reason the founding fathers made sure the right to bare arms shall not be infringed.
Alternatively, there is also a reason why they are training the military to deal with civil unrest in America
despite it being illegal to use the military as law enforcement. There is a reason why FEMA is on video training police that the founding fathers are terrorists
. There is a reason why the FBI "Joint Terrorism Task Force" pamphlet lists those who "Make Numerous references to US Constitution" and "Defenders of the US Constitution" as suspects to report to their hotline
. There is a reason why they are giving armoured tanks to county police chiefs with .50 caliber machine guns mounted on top
. There is a reason why they have already built but have [url=http://www.prisonplanet.com/new-legislation-authorizes-fema-camps-in-us.html]just now legalized FEMA detention centers
. Why they are testing "pain ray"-guns on people dressed up (and with signs) to look like American anti-war protesters
. There is a reason it is illegal to videotape police in NYC
and soon England
. There is a reason why a massive state's rights movement has sparked up
in response to the Federal Governments massive power grabs. A reason the Federal Government under Northcom is federalizing the National Gaurd
. A reason in Iowa they are trying (thankfully met by resistance from hundreds of angry phone calls from patriots) training the national gaurd to infiltrate civilian homes in search of guns
. A reason the military went door-to-door to confiscate LEGALLY OWNED guns in dry suburban new orleans neighborhoods, tackling old ladies and raiding houses like criminals
. THERE IS A REASON why photos like this are now surfacing
THAT REASON IS NOT GOOD.
This financial crisis was created by the bank known as The Federal Reserve. There is NOTHING federal about The Federal Reserve. They are NOT a government entity. They are a private bank that the US Federal Government has surrendered to it's constitutional authority to print and regulate it's national currency. When a private bank controls the nation's money supply and controls the money the government can borrow, the private bank OWNS the country. If you are wondering what was snuck into the first bailout bill besides massive amounts of spending on things like nascar, the Federal Reserve achieved a massive power grab. It now impossible to audit the Federal Reserve Bank. To learn more about the fed's creation and the history of this problem, watch Aaron Russo's Freedom To Fascism
for free. You can also read more about the Feds most recent power grabs in this article.
Now back to our subject:
[quote]Thankfully drugs are illegal, and I never got in contact with them.[/quote]
OK this type of thinking right here is what's fundamentally wrong with politics and is the root of how people lose their freedom. Your basic idea is, 'the government needs to protect me from myself'. 'The government's function is to create laws that punish everybody for the mistakes of the few'.
This type of thinking is all wrong. This is how you become a pampered baby slave. This is entire ideology of the nanny state. The government as a protective entity that saves you FROM YOURSELF.
I am not responsible for your inability to control yourself around drugs. Neither is anyone else. None of us want or expect to be punished or have our freedom removed to be around drugs or any other activity, place, event, or substance, because YOU can't control yourself from becoming self destructive. NO, laws are there to protect YOU from the few occasions where anOTHER person might infringe on YOUR FREEDOMS. Currently the federal government is infringing on our IN BORN right to be responsible for ourselves and our own behavior around and on drugs. Let's change that and eliminate the massive disaster that has resulted from this infringement... this WAR AGAINST THE PEOPLE.
[quote=Servius]The only people who I have met and know who have this opinions and are willing to defend them this strongly are drug users. Sorry, but its the gods honest truth..[/quote]
This right here says more about yourself and the people you "know" and have "met" than the viewpoints I am sharing with you. The mere fact that THOUSANDS of law enforcement officers have UNITED behind these core beleifs, should tell you how real your "god's honest truth" is...
[quote]Do you seriously believe that drugs being decriminalized will cause all of these things?[/quote]
No, I believe that drugs being legalized
will cure these problems. Decriminalization would only solve SOME of the problem. Decriminalization only lowers the penalties of possession. Legalization is the end of prohibition altogether, and the welcoming of regulated taxed product. It is a common misconception that Decrim and Legalization are the same policy, when in fact they are 2 different things.
[quote]less crime? - so when your friend goes to the local drug stand that im sure will open up once drugs become legal and an addict sneaks up and stabs or shoots him to death cecause he needs his fix i guess the crime rate will drop coz that will be a rare thing to happen?[/quote]
ok, that is ridiculous. first off, where do you see local alcohol stands anywhere? no, it is a regulated substance that is ACTUALLY controlled by the government (unlike drugs that are completely OUT of control and in the hands of crime lords). It requires a liquor license to sell and serve and has a specific age limit for purchasing. Now when have you EVER heard of someone stabbing a liquor store owner for their fix of a bottle of alcohol... It's a completely ludicrous scenario that is planted in your brain by the very myths and propaganda that keep the criminal drug trade alive, and the crime rate soaring higher than ever. alcoholics and smokers need their "fix" just as much as any other drug addict, but somehow you see them maintaining civility. You need to seriously sit down and ask yourself "WHY!?". I'll give you a hint, the answer is NOT that alcohol and cigarettes are less addictive or powerful. In fact the withdrawal symptoms of alcohol are so powerful they can cause seizures (this is unique to alcohol and far more severe than other drug withdrawal symptoms).
[quote]not to mention OD's which foreign substance or not if you take enough of anything it can kill you.[/quote]
yeah your absolutely right, which is why when it is legal you will finally actually be able to tell HOW MUCH you are actually taking. And no one will ever have to worry about dieing because they didn't know how powerful their drug was. As I've said the most common OD has to do with the power of the drug. Yes a user who buys a bag of heroin isn't asking to buy Fentanyl, but considering it's almost the same drug yet MUCH more powerful, they can hardly complain that their not getting "good" product. The problem though is that the addict has no idea that he has bought a bag with extremely good or pure product, and could very well be used to what is known on the street as "dog sh*t". Say he needs 4 bags of dog **** to feel anything at all... He gets a new bag with higher purity or commonly fentanyl, and he does 4 bags all at once, assuming that it's going to be the same strength. THIS is how people overdose. THIS is the most common type of overdose, and accounts for the overwhelming majority of overdoses. This is a problem that would be COMPLETELY eradicated by legalizing drugs. Overdoses would then be limit to suicide attempts, which won't increase with the legalization of drugs.
[quote]less disease well when some ecstasy can cure cancer ill pop as many as you recomend doctor[/quote]
I'm not sure what the heck you mean by e curing cancer... but it is worth mention that because of prohibition, many people who think they are buying MDMA which is the chemical that was originally called "Ecstacy", are actually buying any number of drug combinations. E pills have a reputation for being the biggest grab bag of the drug world. This accounts for numerous drug horror stories as taking drugs that you don't know where they came from or what's in them, is NEVER safe. Wait a minute, weren't drug laws there to keep us safe??? think again!
Also, MDMA was recently approved in the US for legitimate medical use in the treatment of post traumatic stress disorder, so I wouldn't be joking so soon about it.
And finally the most important point of this response is that needle sharing in the city ghetto accounts for a massive spread of disease throughout the US. Just take a look at the HIV and Hepatitis rates in US cities. Access to clean needles for cheap is regulated differently from state to state, but is usually very restricted to only people with diabetes. This is a direct result of prohibition policy and thinking. It's also a perfect example of how prohibition hurts spreads disease, is directly destroying the black community, and the harm of the american (and every country's) people.
To counter this problem, many cities have started "needle exchange programs", or needle wagons, where clean needles and injection supplies are passed out to the public for free. While this has had successful results, is this really an appropriate solution for impoverished communities? to accept that drug injection is so deeply rooted in their culture thanks to drug prohibition, that we have needle wagons driving through their neighborhood. Don't you think these kind of materials would be much more appropriate if dispensed without these harmful restrictions to the public from a pharmacy instead. Wouldn't getting the drugs and needles OUT of the ghetto be a better solution. Well we've tried drug prohibition for decades now and it has only made the problem far worse than we could have ever imagined. The streets are rife with crime, disease, and drug addiction. Are we ready to finally fix this problem responsibly or what?
[quote]Less poverty - well now those old corner dealers who are out of business are going to have to find real jobs or even better a new means of doing something illegal. (Perhaps leach off of government funding somehow?)[/quote]
I actually agree with you on that. Welfare is horrible idea. It works off of this principle that blacks and poor people are less capable than everyone else so they NEED the government to give them money for them to survive or achieve anything. They achieve the same thing with laws that force employers to treat women a certain way and other races a certain way. In my and many others opinion, this is one of the most blatant forms of racism/sexism today. The other most blatant form of racism would be drug prohibition. (see video: "drug prohibition and it's link to human slavery"
[quote]More police resorces to fight real crime? 1. at present this is real crime 2. drugs often are causes of further crime dont tell me you've never heard in the news about some junkie shooting someone? how will decriminalizing drugs solve that - i mean alcohol is legal but hell drink driving sure isnt. while there certainly are worse things than a person taking drugs its what happens once theyve taken the drug that can lead to "real crime"[/quote]
I can and will tell you I have never heard in my entire life a new story involving a junkie shooting someone. However I HAVE heard of people robbing pharmacies at gunpoint for their narcotic medications. Ask yourself, would this happen if they were available over the counter at a reasonably low price? The answer is absolutely not. It doesn't happen for alcohol. It doesn't happen for cigarettes. And it would never happen for anything else. The whole need and reason for an addict rob at gunpoint was created by drug prohibition.
As for this idea that people go on crime sprees after taking drugs... That's total myth. However you can go into states of temporary psychosis or insanity from overdosing on drugs like psychedelics or dissociatives. There are cases of people goin buck wild and runnin around naked punching things because they went looney from taking way too much drugs. Fortunately, these cases are rare, and are dealt with swiftly by taking these people to the hospital and hopefully charging them appropriately only for infringing on other peoples rights (by causing violence and damage or disrupting decency and what not...). Once again, this type of thing is only more likely to happen when people have no idea what chemical they are taking. It is entirely possible and DOES HAPPEN that someone could take 1 pill sold to them as "ecstacy" and end up on a hallucinatory subconscious rampage... That's one possible scenario of many.. but of course that specific scenario would be completely eliminated with the end of prohibition. It's important to remember that these people are rarely fully conscious or aware that they are doing something disruptive and are usually in that state because they took something that wasn't what it was said to be, or they hadn't been properly educated about (and how to take it safely).
[quote]Better education/resources to help rehabillitation - so we legalize drugs to educate people on why they shouldnt take drugs?[/quote]
bingo. this way the public recognizes that they have an actual responsibility to treat students with the respect and education that they deserve, by providing actual honest information about how to avoid the problems that are caused by drug misuse, and how to safely use drugs with the least harm possible. we all deserve this as human beings, the responsibility for this kind of education is already there.. however we are DENIED this treatment, and instead given brainscrambling propaganda based on fear and lies and threats of incarceration, that only serve to backfire and erase any piece of truth that may have been buried beneath the lies.
[quote]I understand the concept of rehabilitation but legalizing drugs is a far cry from that.[/quote]
Not at all, in fact it's the best thing that could ever happen for rehabilitating and curing drug addiction worldwide. the resources that would be available and fear of arrest removed... these and many more factors would all serve to create a safer and more accessible environment for an addict to get help. You need to remember that drug courts and forcing people into rehabilitation is not going to help anyone. You cannot overcome an addiction unless you want to. This is a psychological fact.
[quote]Btw wasnt this about gun control[/quote]
It was about gun prohibition, drug prohibition, and all other forms of prohibitions that violate the freedoms of humankind.
p.s. I'd like to thank Pedro and Finnigan for rescuing our conversation and making sure it doesn't get reduced to ugliness and insults. We all lose when that happens. I am actually extremely thankful that you guys have maintained interest in discussing and debating this issue and have desire to keep it friendly. That is really awesome. Thank you!