A very nice and informative article of how Turkey works from the ottoman period, and what led the neo-turk state to do this genocide...

OH... BY THE WAY:

It has a small description of how women were fainted infront of their children's slaughter...

The squealing we were talking about....

The strange thing is that I've never seen equal descriptions from the "turk's side"... Only some dead-bodies photos i've seen that don't make clear if the bodies are armenians or turks...

Even if there was a genocide, one has to prove it.

At the end of World War 2, when the Allied forces captured and liberated the Nazi concentration and death camps, they disclosed what they have found to the whole world. Millions of dead bodies, millions of starving people, the crematoria, the gas chambers, etc., etc.... All this hard and physical evidence was well documented, photographed, filmed and exposed in Nuremberg...

There is no physical evidence in the Armenian case. Photographs showing, let's say 100 dead people do not constitute sufficient evidence for a genocide. At the moment, there are no survivors of the mass-deportation. Their offsprings are alive but their words can not be taken as hard evidence. Actually even the words of the survivors wouldn't have been perceived as physical evidence. You need more than that to prove something like a genocide.

The base for the claims for the so-called Armenian genocide is actually the Blue Book of the British. It was a British propoganda book prepared for the purpose of dragging the US into the war as well as justifying the imminent invasion of Asia Minor. It did work. The US joined the war, Wilson Principles digged Turkey's grave and Anatolia was invaded. Period.

In a genocide you do not waste a part of the population in East Anatolia and leave the other part in Western Anatolia intact. You simply kill'em all. However, the Armenians in West Anatolia, living in great numbers in Izmir and Istanbul were intact. Not typical of a genocidal act, huh???

There are other big genocides in history which have not been recognized as genocides by any countries. Most important ones are:

- The Algerian genocide by French
- The Native American genocide by US

These have not been recognized as genocides. The argument "but they accepted what they have done and made peace with their pasts" is illogical and laughable. After all, regardless of the Hollywood movies, these two events are still not recognized as genocides.

- Are there any monuments to commemorate the Algerian and Red Indian genocides?
- Are there any museums in Europe or US for the Algerian and Red Indian genocides?
- Did France and US officially accept their deeds as genocide?
- Any decree submitted to the EU parliament for the commemoration of Algerian and Red Indian genocides?

Well, I have the pleasure to inform you that all the answers to the above questions are NO. Maybe people like Pytheus should consider this before they accuse us of being barbarians.

Armenians are very very far away from proving that genocide did really occur. No evidence, no films, no camps, no third-party observers, no nothing. Just empty allegations and bed-time stories to keep the hatred of the new generations alive so that maybe one day their dream of great armenia can actually be realized. How pathetic. :applause: What honorless a plan to base a country's policy on. :puke:

Murder on Nation scale is not unique in history. Every nation is guilty of a certain tradegy. However in 1945 the UN indetified a new form of muder and indentified it as Genocide. They came with a new defenition because the Holocaust was unlike any form of muder that occurred before 1939-1945.

So any tradegy of those like that of the Native Americans, Armenians, Colonial massacres or any other tradegy before 1939 cannot be identified as Genocide.

Total of 523,955 Turkish villagers were killed between 1910 and 1922 by the Armenian gangs(for european friends, that is five hundred twenty three thousands).

The archieves contain the location, the date and the number of the Turks died. As oppose to Armenian claims, these numbers are based on not the stories but the documents collected by the army through out the period. Of course you can claim the documents can be forged, yet forging so many documents would be hard. Also, Turkey made an offer to jointly investigate the claims, which is refused by the Armenians.

The link is in Turkish but the numbers in the paranthesis are the counts of the murders by the Armenian gangs.

http://www.hurriyetim.com.tr/haber/0,,sid~...d~564574,00.asp

I agree with Picard. What we are seing is not the science. It is not scientific to put the claims and then say since there is no document againts it, this must be valid. The science is to put your claims and your proofs together. In other words, saying something is valid until it is proven wrong is not the way to go. Something is valid only when it is proven correct.

Note that while most of the Turkish people understand and recognize the tradegy experienced by the both sides, we are yet to see a proof on this so called genocide on one side.

Interesting Saladin...Thanks
But my question would be...how should the Armenians come to Turkey and investigate "together" in the same minute Turkey didnt even recongizes them as a country...its political incorrect you see?
An other point would be interesting ...
If it is how the paper says...and Turkey has so many files on Turkish population...and deaths...How does it comes..that nobody knows anything about the 1619 lost soldier Greek Cypriots mostly?

I mean ... :dunno:
Regards

I like to add to the post of Picard that the Russians and the Turks when signing a cease-fire they agreed that Armenians and Turks commited atrocities but this was because of the chaos on the Russian-Turkish front. This was repeated in Laussanne.

And why did the Armenians didn't search for recognising genocide for 50 years, but it al began in the late 70's when ASALA began it's terror campaign???

Another thing this date the world recognises, 24th of April, is the date that between 200 and 300 Armenian organisation members were arrested for causing uprising and terror in Anatolia.

Those archives also aknowledge that 300.000 Armenians died during retaliation attacks.

There is also a decree that orders the protection of alll armenian citizens in the regions. The people who failed protecting them, where sentenced in a court of law.

Lord,

Turkey does recognize Armenia as a country, just doesn't have diplomatic relations with them. There is a big difference.

In fact Turkey was one of the first countries to recognise Armenia when it became independant, it hoped to have close relations with Armenia. Sadly Armenia and Azerbaycan got into war soon after independance.

Note the archives on the casualties during WWI are from the Ottoman archives. Its one of the best perserved and detailed archives in the world.

I am agree with Lord. Actually if Turkey offers a multinational committee composed of historians to investigate if the events in 1915 can be defined as a genocide, Turkey should refrain from making political comments and establish the same distance with pro or against ideas. If this would be an independent commission this commission should have any and all means to access state archives, conduct oral history research, make DNA tests in some mass graves and the governments of Turkey and Armenia should shut their official mouths up.

The political comments further traumatize people, and the dialogue channels cannot be established under heavy political cluster environment.

Modus, you see the claims of the Armenians (Goverment/Diaspora) about genocide is nothing but a political move. The acceptance of the Parlement of France is nothing more but Political.

Just look at the current state of the Armenian Nation, without any perspective of the future, the Armenians can nothing do but to cry out about the so-called genocide and their missery because of the big bad Turks. This is not a conflict of historical facts, just a pure and dirty political fight.

Oral research???? There are literally millions of Armenians out there who are willing to testify for the lies that they themselves had believed in.

Dear Cid,

I do know that the Armenian Diaspora has been acting upon political motives, but it's our thesis that this particular event of history should be investigated and discussed by scientists, mostly historians and law specialists. We want a historical clarification of the issue, this exactly meant a squeeze for hate policies in the Diaspora. Thus IMHO when calling for a politics-free investigation, we should first act accordingly in the capacity of the first party which made the offer for such a multinational committee.

Dear Picard,

Oral history is a comparatively novel field of science, but despite the initial impression of subjectivity the results can be compared, verified and validated and tacit historical facts can be derived therefrom. When I mentioned the necessity for an oral history research I did not mean only Armenians, the elder people in mostly Eastern Anatolia have a lot of things to say about the atrocities by Armenian gangs backed by Russian army. As a matter of fact there are strict rules and methods that must be observed in order for such an interview can be deemed a scientific evidence, but not merely memoirs. We should bear in our minds that most Armenian allegations are not backed by documents but by memories. We must stress scientific methods for oral history, I don't think that most Armenian memories have some scientific value. This is my point.

My best regards, brothers
Hakan

Excactly my point Hakan...
And other point would be...if this interanational comitee would search with the help of this files...and found out that some or alot of Armenians were killed.
So what would be the point ?
I mean...today Germany has the bad history of ww2 but remains one of the most respected countrys in the world....no?
suppose this half million Turkish citizen were killed by Gangs...?
We should go back in this time period and the tactics that were used back than...
excample...
some War lord made an gang of 100-200 man...mostly criminal or not...he raid a village...kill people etc etc..ok?
The next step is that the Osman military would strike back no?
Killing also some villagers from the area that the gang came...
We call this an War Venteta which was very popular at this time...
So if really half milion were killed ... the Armenian should have more...
Concerning that they were not the official state...and haid not the support of the regular Army...

I know its sound simplystic...but has a point no?

and now we come to present ok?

Let us assume that this was happen...and tamele tamburia didnt excist..nor the Marches of hundrets of kilometers...which killed also alot of people...(inovetion from an German Officer...at that time serving the Othoman Empire)

How excactly can it be that so much people died...?

Resume...even if it would prove that the ottoman Empire systimaticly killed this people...who excactly would blaim Present Turkey and the Turkish Folk?
I mean anybody knows what the US state did against Indians...but who blaimed them...? what actions were took against them?
An sory in this situation wouldnt cost anything...it would only rise Turkey in the eyes of the world...
and if they are luying...about "genozide"...and you could prove it..they should shut there mouths for ever...


My 2 Cents


Regards

I merged this topic with the other one, so all messages are here in this thread now.

@Lord

If Genocide would be recognized, Turkey will defenitly be held accountable because it is the legal succesor of the Ottoman Empire.

To be precise, most of the Armenian Deportation was carried out by the Kurds. The Regular Ottoman army was too busy fighting against the allied forces of Britain and her Commonwealth, France, Russia and the Arab revolts.


@Modus

I would really like this problem to be solved by scientists, but my point was its not possible anymore. This issue has become a political issue, since nations are trying to acknowledge it by their parlements, like it happend in France, US and Canada.

So what?

would it cost something except some Sory...and some money?
in the end of day...Turkey would gain more...
being a open and grand nation which can handle her big history...believe me...i could live with ...
Who will blaime the Serbians or Bosnians or Albanians or Croatians?
Nobody...
But if you let this roumor and myth go on and on...they will gain more...
and iam saying this without even prove that there was an systematic genocide...or not.
Greece has kicked out the Tsamourian Albans from Epirus area...and if they wouldnt run like hell...believe me the mountains would be full of there bodys...
Now they are whining in any forum they can...who gives a...
because they colaborated with Nazis...they were kicked out...end of story...
do they want an appologie...?
if yes and the issue could be ended...i would give them an kiss...saying oh how sory iam..but nothing can change...and everybody stays at hes corner...because they made the wrong move in a timline were the greek people were under foreighn rules...

The Kurds?
Yes i know...but they haid orders from who? to do so? :lol:
The Kurds made alot of more to other people..including Pontians...thats why i hate them so much...You see
If Turkey change...you will gain more...
Finish the issue with Armenians...in a propper way...and you wont lose


Regards Yiyen

Dear Friends,

I think that the problem itself has four different dimensions: 1. Scientific, 2. Legal, 3. Political, and 4. Ethical-Human.

Scientific investigation is a must for this issue. Now scientific methods are quite advanced when compared to those in 1915s. Forensic medicine methods can tell us hows, whens, identity of victims of any massacres and those who might have committed such atrocities. Archives in many countries are now available, except for the Russian Archive and the Armenian Archive in Boston. We can have a scientific opinion after an independent multinational, multidisciplinary research. But this is not sufficient.

Speaking in legal terms I am not sure if the atrocities in 1915 can be defined as a Genocide pursuant to the UN convention, and relevant international terminology. This must be found by legal specialists and historians, and inflationary use of Genocide term itself , without regard to its legal scope, has blown the very opportunity to open dialogue between parties, since the Genocide term traumatizes people in both parties.

In case it is found that there had been a Genocide in 1915, Turkey will not be subject to legal sanctions since the UN Convention is not retroactive. There will be no legal grounds for any claims, as also certified by international law specialists (I will give a link for such a report, which suggested that the events might be called a Genocide but no claims can be directed to Turkey).

This is the brief legal framework for the problem. But it's not sufficient either since supporters of Armenian Genocide claims did not take any one single legal action against Turkey, and the only legal actions was brought either by the invasion forces in Istanbul, and by the Republic of Turkey, all of which showed no evidence supporting Genocide claims that the Armenians were killed systematically by government decree, and a few individuals were sentenced to prison or death for violence and negligence. Despite the fact that international law impose no obstacles before Armenians to go to the Hague and other competent courts, the claims almost always used simply as a political tool, especially before the elections in certain countries, or before such developments as prospective EU accession of Turkey.

Politically speaking, the Genocide issue has been a tool for manipulating Turkey, and the more it has become political, the more human dimension faded away. This is mainly because of the fact the most prominent, active parties claiming Genocide, or denying the same have been ultranationalists. And they always talked louder than those speaking for a dialogue channel between people. The problem got complicated after Armenian constitution did not recognize Turkish territorial integrity (which is against the UN convention), and the Armenian assault against Azerbaijan, invading a certain part of the country and committing massacres against Azerbaijani people.

But IMHO the most important dimension of the problem is the ethical-human dimension. I am personally very sorry for all Armenian and Muslim citizens (Turks, Kurds, and Circassians) died in said events. In legal terms Republic of Turkey may not be kept responsible for the atrocities, ignorance, negligence of Ottoman Empire, and so Armenian citizens, Diaspora, or Armenian Republic citizens cannot be kept responsible for the atrocities etc. of gangs, but we must bear the ethical responsibility based on respect for humanity. We do owe a big sorry to each other.

I personally think that Armenian Genocide claims are not true (legally speaking) but I am a human being. In the history not so far, nations have committed ethnic cleansing, crimes against humanity, and Genocide against their enemies based on political, economic, ideological, cultural etc. motives. But now things are different. Such atrocities are no longer deemed as normal operations. I think the most important thing is that given many nations which have committed such atrocities are now members to the elite club of civilized world just indicate the significance of a simple virtue: the desire, will, and self-confidence to face history. This is what we need today in both parties.

My best regards
Hakan

:thumbsup:

:hathello: Very nice speech Modus

(I say Modus Abi should become Prime Minister :applause: )

And how do you define the scientifical approachment of the "genocide"???

Mass graves and stuff??

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, the 2500.000-500.000 dead turks may are dead soldiers to the battles while trying to defend the empire in the balkans. the arab penisula and the minor asia (galipoli, afion, smyrna etc)...
Sidenote: the total number of dead soldiers from the turk's side was 4.000.000 (1.000.000 for greeks)
Maybe these 500.000 dead were soldiers from these areas and you count them as "genocided" from the Armenians...

On the other hand, Armenians in the ottoman empite were in the number of 3.500.000.....

Every nation has multiplied itself in the last century, because of the industralisation of agriculture and emporium...

Only Armenians and Jews are less than they were... Nowadays, the Armenian population is 1 million in Armenia + 1,5 million in Diaspora = 2,5 million...

Sth must have happened to them and not follow the route of the rest of Humanity...

And do not tell me it is because of the embargo , because the embargo is active the last 10 years.... I think that the result of this shrink must be sth bigger than an embargo from a neighbouring country...

Anyway, I have to admit that the contribution of all members (except mine perhaps, he he) made this thread a very classy one.... Woow!...

1. The people who were killed were no soldiers, because the massgraves are always found in villages in the East, and all males able to fight were on the frontlines.
Some forensic studies of the sceleton and objects (clothing, etc), have shown that they were chldren, women and elderly.

2.That nuber you give 3.500.000 isn't correct. I shall look it up, I read it was 1,5 million.

This is the point, the Armenians (normal people) were killed by regular people (townsmen, peasants), as retaliation for the terrorist campaigns by the Armenian gangs.
The state then ordered that all Armenians have to be protected (by local authorities, resulting in sending them all to safer places) and that anyone who doesn't comply will be sentenced in a court of law.

Friends...I really believe that if turkey would recognise the actions of the ottoman empire against the armenians as genocide it would be a big boost for their EU membership in the next years....
All the "big" players in the EU like France(espescially...) and germany(at least all the conservative parties which don´t like to see thurkey as part of the EU)
could not act different from easing their resistance against turkeys membership....a lot of their arguements would appear as antagonistic....(in terms of religion,mentality,nationalism,etc...).Turkey would appear as really modern and democratic state.....just my two cents.

Can someone please explain why my posts were deleted?

First you move them from politics to History and when i complained(and explained why) you delete them completely? :doubt:

Who of you mods did it? gun2

I did not delete it of course...

You said your message did not belong in this thread and wanted it to be a seperate thread in the Politics and Current Conflicts section. Therefore, I took action to meet your request and transferred it to the said section. It is right here:
http://s7.invisionfree.com/worldconflictsf...p?showtopic=828
:damn:

I can swear that i looked before and it wasn't there!

well.....almost....... :bricks:

all sources from Armenians...when I see these sources,a litlle bit in doubt about its uprightness level. This issue as we know is just only a step of Armenians related to maintaining their economical and ethnic identity.They always keep on these issues refresh...


There are no political party, non-governmental organization or academician in Armenia that has courage to deny “genocide”. The leader of the National Democratic Union of Armenia, Vazgen Manukyan, commented on the relations between Turkey and Armenia to ÝA REGNUM News Agency. Manukyan blamed Turkey with “genocide”, demanded about opening the borders, also, highlighted the importance of propaganda activities regarding international recognition of Armenian genocide. Andranic Migranyan, a well-known Armenian historian, shares the same point of view with him. In the press conference on May 8, 2004 he notified that he didn’t approve the statements of President Robert Kocharian regarding so-called Armenian genocide, which was “For us the recognition of the genocide is important. The demands of land and indemnity are claims of Diaspora not Armenian state.” He particularly emphasized on not to withdraw the claim of recognition of “genocide” by Turkey and the propaganda of “genocide” by Armenian government even if diplomatic relations were established between two states, the border gates were opened and the economic relations improved.

In a period that Armenian government speeds up the work about recognition of so-called genocide, some political and economic circles in Turkey supports the opening of border gates and stressing that such a case would be a pretext for the normalization of relations between two countries. These circles do not take the opponent policy of Armenia towards Turkey into consideration and forget disclaim of Armenia regarding Turkish territorial integrity, demands about recognition of so-called genocide by Turkey, also, land and indemnity demands.


Boghos Nubar, Letter to Times of London, dated January 30, 1919:
(Mr. Nubar was the head of the Armenian National Delegation to the Paris Peace Conference held by the victors of the WWI)

The Armenians have been, since the beginning of the war, de facto belligerents - since they fought alongside the Allies on all fronts - in Palestine and Syria, where the Armenian volunteers, recruited by the Armenian National Delegation at the request of the French government, made up more than half of the French contingent. In the Caucasus, where, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Imperial Russian Army, more than 40,000 of their volunteers offered resistance to the Turkish Armies.

Lieutenant Colonel T. Williams (Labour Party M.P.), Parliamentary Debates (Commons), London 25.ii.1924, vol. 170:

The Armenians were very well treated for hundreds of years by the Turks, until Russia, in the first place, started using them as pawns for purely political purposes; they exploited them as Christians, solely as pawns.

A. H Arslanian, British Wartime Pledges, 1917-1918: The Armenian Case,
Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 13, 1978:

British promises to Armenians were exactly like their promises to Arabs in Syria, Palestine and Mesopotamia; they were made with the purpose of encouraging the war efforts of the Armenians, to influence neutral states in favor of England and to excite the separatist tendencies in ethnic minorities under the rule of these neutral states so as to make their enemy, the Ottoman Empire, collapse from the inside (page 522).

Lord Curzon, PRO, FO. 800/151, 6.xii.1921:

I think Armenians know that among the Great Powers, Her Majesty's Government have always been their best friend and most loyal supporters..But you cannot expect this country - or any other one - to choose any area in Turkey, to chase away from there all other races, to increase the Armenian population there under the shadow of British bayonets, and to thus organize a national Armenian existence there with exorbitant taxes to be extracted from the British people. Even the thought of it cannot go beyond being a raw fancy.


conc;

For me this and many other such historical issues are just a playground for politicians who by definition are interested in historical so-called tragedies exploitations for short term political issues. This issue s a political,not a historical fact.



regards.

Actually,most proof the Armenians present today,comes from the "big powers" of the era.DO a google search for US ambassador Morghentau (ambassador in Turkey at the time) and Lord Bryce (British official at the time) as well as some old US newspapers .The rest are photos

And photos section s another issue for a so-called proof. I have seen some Turkish deaths posted by Armenians. And it was a so hard step for providing them,that these photos inside is not related to Armenian claims. It is an "genocide industrial". This industry feeds them, so it s a state policy.
There s an interesting book published by an American (scottish) attorney.And the book cover is so aggresive.





PREFACE



Every American will forever remember where they were on the morning of September 11, 2001—the date Muslim extremists attacked New York City and Washington, D.C. Americans will also remember watching the celebrations in some parts of the Muslim world in the Middle East.

Many Americans are asking the question, "Why do Muslims hate the United States?" Unfortunately, the Muslim world has good cause to not like Americans and this book documents one very good reason this is true. This book could well be titled One Good Reason Why Muslims Hate Americans.

Of course, not all Muslims hate the United States. I was in Istanbul, Turkey, on September 11 producing a video titled The Seven Churches of Revelation and doing research on this book. (Many Americans do not know that Asia Minor of the Bible is today's Turkey. Many Christians are not aware that Turkey is the second most important country in the world to historical Christianity.) Turkey is unique in that almost 97 percent of its population is Muslim. Turkey is also the only democratic Muslim nation in the world.

This modern-day Near East democratic country was founded in 1923 because of the genius of one man: Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (1881-1938). He instituted extensive reforms and was truly one of the great world statesmen of the twentieth century. He threw the sultans out of the country and removed the Muslim religious leaders from their powerful positions in government. A new constitution was adopted that separated religion from government. Education was mandated for everyone. Women were given the right to vote and work in any profession. Muslim traditional dress for women was no longer required. Ataturk's long list of reforms and improvements go on and on.

It was because of the vision of Ataturk in 1923 that I enjoyed total freedom of movement, speech, and religion in Turkey in August and September 2001. Ataturk believed Turkey must turn to the West if the nation was to grow and prosper. Turkey continues today in the Ataturk tradition. It is the reason this Muslim nation is such a close friend and strong ally of the United States, more so than any other Muslim nation.

Within thirty minutes of the third plane hitting its target in Washington, D.C., the prime minister of Turkey was on national television telling citizens he had placed the military on the highest alert. He also said he had called the president of the United States to say if America went to war, his country was ready to go to war also because Turkey and the United States are friends, allies, and partners.

This is remarkable when one realizes the Muslim nations of Iran, Iraq, and Syria are next-door neighbors. Also in the neighborhood are Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Sudan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, and Afghanistan.

I wish every American could have been with me to experience the reaction of the Turks to the cowardly attack on the United States. Taxi drivers, waiters, waitresses, employees in the small shops and large stores, government employees—all, without exception, voiced genuine sorrow and support for their government's willingness to send their young men to fight the war on terrorism with the United States.

Turks, even though 97 percent Muslim, do not share the views of other Muslims who hate the United States. Consequently, it is a tragedy that a small group of Armenian-Americans is waging a campaign of hate toward Turkey within the United States today. This tiny band of people has caused some thirty state legislatures to pass meaningless resolutions attacking Turkey for an alleged genocide of 1915—eight years before Turkey became (\ nation.

I have uncovered facts that prove Armenian-Americans are spreading tall tales claiming a massacre and genocide in an effort to get mega-dollars out of both the Turks and American Christians to benefit their 150-year-old "ancient" homeland. The question for my fellow Americans to answer is simply this: Whom do you believe—other Americans who saw the Armenians, very much alive, leaving the Ottoman Empire? Or Armenians who merely claim 1.5 million of their people were murdered by the Ottoman government?

This book is based on historical evidence, much of it from Armenian sources. American Christians are invited to search the total record for themselves to determine who is telling truth and who is making up and spreading tall tales for their own selfish reasons

In 1992, Armenia captured 20 percent of the lands of Muslim Azerbaijan through a surprise, unprovoked attack. The Armenians thrust more than a million Muslims from their homes without compensation, forcing them now to live in squalor in tent city refugee camps. The Russians gave Armenia more than a billion dollars worth of military arms and supplies. According to a U.S. Congressional Study Report, over the past ten years, the United States has given Armenia 1.4 billion dollars in foreign aid while discriminating against Muslim Azerbaijan by cutting foreign aid to it. This is one reason many Muslims hate Americans.

When the Azerbaijani government recovered from the attack, the country began to defend itself from the Armenian terrorists. Congress reacted by punishing Azerbaijan. The Armenian lobby within the United States lobbied Congress to pass laws to cut off many kinds of aid to Azerbaijan because the Azerbaijanis had established a blockade to prevent military sup-plies from reaching Armenia. In 1992, Congress passed the Freedom Support Act and Section 907, which restricts certain types of foreign aid to Azerbaijan until it has lifted its "illegal" blockade of Armenia.

Does the United States have the right to determine how one nation defends itself against another? What if another nation had passed such legislation against the United States after Japan attacked us on December 7, 1941. Why, then, is the United States punishing Azerbaijan? Why is the United States denying a country its sacred right to defend its land and people? Why is the United States taking the side of aggressor and ethnic cleanser? Didn't we punish an aggressor—Saddam Hussein—by bombing Iraq? Didn't we punish an ethnic cleanser—Slobodan Milosevic—by bombing Yugoslavia? Why are we now rewarding some others who perpetrated both aggression and ethnic cleansing?

Perhaps Congress passed such a law because the Armenians claim to be the first Christian nation on earth and Azerbaijan is a Muslim country. Is it any wonder gasoline prices have steadily increased during this same period of time because the Middle Eastern countries we obtain oil from are also Muslim? Clearly, these Islamic countries have no reason to cut the United States any slack when America joined with Russia to help Armenia attack its neighbor. This American attitude of helping so-called Christians against Muslims, even when the so-called Christians are terribly wrong and do evil deeds, is a major reason many Middle Eastern Muslims hate Americans.

Consider just how and why the United States discriminated against Muslim Azerbaijan. In 1992, the small but vocal Armenian-American lobby talked the U.S. Congress into passing a law to cut aid to Azerbaijan. Why? Because the Armenians claim Azerbaijan refused to allow Armenia to continue to use its ports to receive military supplies and to allow Armenia permission to transport those supplies over Azerbaijan territory. Armenian-Americans influenced Congress to call the Azerbaijan act of self-defense an "illegal embargo."

Now, after September 11, President George W. Bush is attempting to reach out and secure support of Muslim nations—including Azerbaijan—to help in the U.S. war on terrorism. One reason this small state is important to America's war effort is because of how near it is geographically to Afghanistan. The president has asked Congress to repeal the 1992 law cutting off foreign aid to Azerbaijan. As a result of this, Armenian-Americans launched a nationwide campaign to oppose President Bush's effort to get the support of this important Muslim country. Armenian-Americans claim it might harm Armenia. Apparently, this is more important than the national interests of the United States.

At the same time Armenian-Americans are fighting President Bush, they are also working to get an Armenian terrorist out of a California prison. This Armenian terrorist assassinated a Turkish diplomat in 1982. The terrorist was caught, charged, tried, found guilt by a California jury, and sentenced to life in prison without parole. Armenian-Americans want this convicted assassin back on the streets of the United States.

It is especially important after what occurred on September 11 that we, as a nation, establish as many close friendships within the Muslim world as we can. It does not make sense to continue to support a terrorist state, like Armenia, even if it claims to be Christian.

It isn't right for Congress to react to the political pressure of a small but loud group calling themselves Armenians. It is long past time to examine the Armenian record. This tiny state's chief export since 1918 has been terrorism and the chief import has been foreign aid from Christians around the world.

Because there are so few Muslims in the United States, Armenian-American lobbyists have free rein here. No one has checked to determine if Armenia is a true Christian state, as it claims. This book will explore the efforts and activities of the Armenians to establish what they claim is an independent and free state. This book will also examine the merits of the Armenian claim they are Christian. Are they really?

The facts that will be proved in this book are as follows:

In 1890, a tiny gang of Armenians began a terrorist revolutionary movement within the Ottoman Empire to obtain the lands and property of Muslims free of charge by conquest. These Armenians claimed their ancestors possessed these lands some three thousand years ago. However, Armenian Christians had lived in peace with Ottoman Muslims for more than five hundred years before their terrorist campaign began in 1890. They had lived under Roman rule for perhaps a thousand years before that.

Until 1914 and 1915, this band of troublemakers within the Ottoman Empire was so small the Ottomans ignored them. Then Russia invaded the Ottoman Empire and these Armenians flocked to join them, believing the Russian czar would give them the Ottoman lands they coveted and schemed to obtain. The czar had no intention of doing such a thing.

Turkish Armenians pretended to be friendly neighbors of the Ottomans by day but began destructive terrorist attacks behind Ottoman military lines by night. These terrorist attacks on Ottoman soil hurt the Ottoman troops, hindering their ability to fight the Russians. The Ottoman government was forced to remove all Armenians from behind the battle zones because they could not determine which Armenians were terrorists and which were not. This is much the same thing nations have done to protect themselves from what they perceived as disloyal people for thousands of years.

A recent example of this is the U.S. government's removal of Japanese-Americans from the West Coast to internment camps inland after Japan attacked the United States on December 7, 1941. On February 19,1942, President Franklin Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9006, an exclusion order that gave the military permission to remove Japanese-Americans from military areas. This order permitted West Coast authorities—sensitive not only to the prospect of Japanese attacks but also to the possibility of spies collecting information for the enemy—to forcibly move Japanese-Americans to internment camps farther inland. Of course, Japanese-Americans did not establish armies behind American lines or join up with advancing Japanese armies. It was simply the fear of such a possibility that caused the U.S. government to incarcerate them.

What the Ottomans did in 1915 was no different. However, in this situation, Armenians did establish terrorism behind Ottoman lines, did join up with advancing enemy armies (Russian and French), and did try to ethnically cleanse Muslims, mostly Turks, from areas the Armenians planned to carve out of the Ottoman Empire for themselves.

The sad story is what the Armenians did thereafter to deceive Christians of America and the world. The Armenian leaders sent paid agents throughout the Christian world to tell untrue stories about how hundreds of thousands of their Christians had been massacred by the terrible Turk Muslims.

The truth is that American eyewitnesses accounted for the Armenians who were removed from the combat areas as they left the Ottoman lands. Armenian spin doctors today have increased the numbers they claim to have been massacred from a few hundred thousand to 1.5 million. Armenians saw how the world responded to what the Nazis did to the Jews during World War II. Then, more than forty-three years after the event, Armenians cried out the Turks committed a terrible "genocide" in 1915. Modern-day Turkey didn't even become a nation until 1923—eight years after the Ottomans kicked the Armenians out of their country for being terrorists and disloyal.

The so-called Armenian state would have been nothing more than a single footnote in history had the Ottomans not joined forces with Germany during World War I—and lost. During this Great War, the United States did not even declare war on the Ottoman Empire. For some odd reason, the Armenians then, as now, lake the position the Americans and other Allied nations owe them Muslim lands. Not only that, but the Armenians also believe the Allies owe them their troops and money to protect and help occupy and retain Muslim lands from sea to sea. There is little or no proof Armenians contributed much of anything to winning the war.

After the war ended, a tiny gang of dictators took control of some landlocked mountain lands in Russia and proclaimed themselves the Republic of Armenia. One of the first things this new state of Armenia did was launch a sneak attack on its Christian neighbor Georgia in an unprovoked attempt to obtain land. The Armenian terrorist dictators lost.

Shortly thereafter, the Armenian leaders attempted another surprise attack, this time on Muslim Azerbaijan. Again, the Armenian terrorist dictators lost.

The Armenians begged for arms and ammunition from the Allies to protect themselves. During this time Armenian-paid agents were trying to get any Allied country to send troops to help the Armenians gobble up the Muslim lands they coveted and schemed to obtain for free.

Meanwhile, the Armenian leaders were plotting another attack on the Turks. This time the Turks beat the Armenians to the punch, attacked first, and reclaimed their own "historic homelands" the Ottomans had possessed for some eight hundred years. During the time the Armenian leaders were making secret plans to attack the Turks, they were also making covert deals with the Russians. Armenia became a part of the Soviet Union without ever firing a shot in self-defense. In 1988, Armenia claimed to have become an independent state but continued to maintain close ties to Russia as evidenced by Armenia's request that Russia build military bases within their tiny state. Russian troops are stationed at these bases, Russian MIG fighter jets are based in the country, and there are many surface-to-air missile batteries there today because Armenia asked for them.

Why should Congress give billions of dollars to such people when they are in the Russians' pocket? Why not just let the Russians take care of their own people?

Christians throughout the world must stop taking the word of Armenians at face value and examine the truth for themselves. This Christian, in making an independent examination, has discovered the truth cannot be found on Armenian web sites or in books and articles written by Armenians. Most Muslims have been forced out of the country. Now Armenia is one of the most closed Christian societies on earth. It has just one "official" church, which is a part of the state and given authority by the Armenian constitution. There is no such thing as the separation of church and state in this tiny land.

Contrast this fact with the Turks, whom the Armenians love to hate. It is interesting to note that there are more Armenian Churches in Turkey than there are in Armenia and contrary to most other data they make available on the web, that one is absolutely correct. I have recently been to Turkey. I witnessed with my own eyes that Turks and Armenians live and worship together in great freedom, harmony, and friendship. This is quite a contrast with the Armenian-Americans' ugly misrepresentations and evil efforts to plant the seeds of hatred and rage, here in the United States, against Turks. Just what kind of Christianity do these Armenian-Americans practice?

Why, for example, does the Armenian Church continue to use animal blood sacrifices? Why does the Armenian Church not believe in the total forgiveness of sins as taught by Christ? Why have Armenian Christian leaders called out publicly for the blessing of mythical gods?

The long list of deception, fraud, abuses, massacres, and terrorist acts Armenians have committed are documented in this book. These are Armenian secrets they don't want the Christians of the world to know about, but they are revealed and documented in Armenian sources. These reports are factual reports by Armenians themselves.

Every Christian and every public official should read this book before agreeing to either give money or vote for meaningless resolutions attacking modern-day Turkey, solely based on the Armenian tall tales that were invented by them, in order to get lots of free stuff from the Christian world. There was no "genocide" as they claim.

Direct evidence will be provided, several times, from Armenian sources that the Armenia's government directed terrorist attacks as official state policy. There have been Armenian terrorist attacks and murders within nations all over the world in recent years.

I am not Azerbaijani, Georgian, Turk; I am not Armenian. I am a Scottish-American, whose first Scottish ancestor came to America in 1686. I am a Southerner, a lifelong Baptist, and an American taxpayer. I have written this book under the light of extensive research in locations such as Washington, D.C., Rome, Paris, London, Moscow, and Istanbul. It would have been helpful to research in Armenia but their archives are not open to the public.

The archives in Istanbul, Turkey, are very much open, however, and have been for some time. The irony is that the files in Armenia's capital of Erevan and Armenian Revolutionary Federation offices in Boston are still closed to researchers and the public. What are they hiding? Why does Armenia have an Armenian Revolutionary Federation office in the United States?

The pages to follow are based on the pen of the chief historian of the self-called Republic of Armenia. The historians' own words and the sources he sited prove, beyond a shadow of doubt, that his beloved Armenia is a bogus rogue state. The observations revealed in the pages to follow are written by a neutral seeker of fact and truth behind events that date from 1890 and continue to the present day.

Because I am not a professional historian I may have made technical mistakes in preparing this book. I accept responsibility for such errors. However, the facts that are presented in the text of the book speak directly and honestly for themselves.

There have been prominent Americans, dating back to 1919, who have spoken out about Armenian corruption to deceive the Christian world into giving them vast amounts of unregulated money. The Armenian response to any American citizen who spoke out or objected has been, and continues to be, the same: They always launch character or physical attacks on any such person.

Hubert Hoover directed the U.S. effort to help rebuild Europe after World War I. He experienced only one failure and that was the dictator-run state of Armenia. This future American president stated that Armenian corruption "would be the greatest scandal in American charitable history. "The Armenians responded by attacking his character.

Readers of this book will discover from the words of today's Armenians that this attitude of ingratitude continues. The proof will be that the Armenian attitude is that American citizens owe their tax dollars to Armenia.

There are several U.S. citizens who have researched Armenia and published their findings. Each of them has been subjected to Armenian campaigns of terror. Consider but a few such individuals:

• Professor Stanford Shaw of UCLA. Armenians bombed his
home and terrorized him in several different ways.
• Professor Heath Lowry of Princeton University was recently
forced out as chairman of a Near Eastern studies program
because of a two-year hate and smear campaign directed
against him.
• Professor Justin McCarthy of the University of Louisville
has been subjected to all manner of character attacks and
attempts to have him removed from his teaching position.
• Film maker Robin Williams recently produced a documen
tary film titled The Biblical Treasures of Turkey, Several times
when he attempted to show his film, young Armenians
disrupted the showings. On one occasion Armenian youth
invaded the theater by throwing stink bombs and forcing
the evacuation of the audience.

Once the announcement was made that this book was to be published I experienced a vicious attack directed by the Armenian Assembly of America. This is a large mega million-dollar special interest lobby based in Washington, D.C. It has forty or fifty professional employees. The sole purpose of this special interest Armenian lobby organization is to obtain as much American taxpayer dollars as they can for Armenia. This amounts to almost 1,5 billion dollars over the past ten years. In addition, the Armenian Assembly of America also works to oppose anything relating to Turkey or the other Muslim nations of the Near East. Because of the hate campaign directed toward me by the Armenian Assembly of America more than a thousand messages have poured in attacking me personally. Of this number, there are twenty-three death threats. Consider the "character" of the Armenians who wrote the following messages to me about a book not one of them could have read yet. (I received these threats before the book was even published.)
· "The St. John Press book is full of lies, lies, and lies. Who paid Weems to write it? It's so typical of Turkish revisionism. Are you sure you want to be supporting a website that's so blatantly deceptive?"
· "Having read the book of Mr. Samuel A. Weems, I pro
claim that all the facts that the author is talking about are DEFINITELY FALSE,"
· "You stupid f—ing ignorant savages!! How can you really
believe what you are publishing and distributing?"

Consider the following examples of threats upon my life. I take such threats seriously because in recent years Armenians have murdered some seventy people around the world, four here in the United States.

• "I just wanted to tell you that you will burn in hell for putting down the first Christian nation. I will make sure to show up to your funeral, hopefully soon, and piss on your pathetic corpse."
• "I will never ever ever forget my revenge so get ready for it. There are 1 OOOOOOOOOOOOOs like me alllll over the world. Keep smiling."
• "U deserve to die a beast. Some Armenian is gonna kill u some day. And ur not gonna like the Armenian wrath!!!!!!!!"
• "I want to mention that your book about Armenia is stu-pid as you, because to write such a book against Armenia which is country in the world to accept Christian first, Iwant to inform you, as you know we are separated all overthe world and if I can find you I'll kill you."

I personally responded to a handful of the messages I received in order to ask questions of Armenians. I was curious about how they think. One question I asked was whether Armenians approve of all the death threats I was receiving. Here is a typical answer: "It seems that you are generalizing that Armenians are terrorists from the death threats you have received. Since when does protecting your culture make a whole nation a terrorist state?"

The prevailing Armenian attitude is that it is permissible to make death threats upon anyone with whom you disagree as a matter of "Armenian" culture. This is an unacceptable attitude within a civilized world.

I asked Armenians the question why their state made a sneak attack on their neighbor Muslim Azerbaijan in 1992. The Armenians captured 20 percent of the country and forced more than 1 million poor souls to flee their homes and live in horrible tent city refugee conditions. Here is a typical answer of why Christian Armenia made the sneak attack on Muslim Azerbaijan: Don't you tell me that the Armenians fighting with the Azeris makes Armenians less Christian. Look back in history and you will find that a Holy War took place."

The facts are the Armenians received more than 1 billion dollars in military hardware from the Russians to wage what this Armenian calls a "Holy War." Christian Russia and Christian America supports Armenia in its "Holy War." This is an excellent example why the Muslim world hates the United States. Is it any wonder Muslim oil countries raise American gas prices so often?

I asked several Armenians why U.S. taxpayers should give Armenia billions of dollars of American hard-earned tax money.
"American taxpayers have no say to what cause their tax dollar is allocated towards. They listen to their elected government like good little children. Do you know how American taxpayers benefit from American foreign aid? They have the luxury of believing that they live in a country that helps those in need. Selfishness doesn't get votes and it certainly doesn't make your heart feel happy. The country you live in has a hand in things you can't even get your mind around, sorry to burst your bubble. The basic answer to your questions is that the American government doesn't want you to know why and it does not care what you think either."

Another Armenian wrote, "In the end, you suggest that we thank the American people'—the favorite way for political prostitutes and demagogues to express their own wishes by speaking in the name of the people. Unlike some behind-kissing crooks, we don't have to thank anybody for anything."

A third Armenian summed up her state's attitude in this way: "To answer why American tax money should go to Armenia, plain and simple, because Armenia deserves it. You really are an illiterate and stupid 'son of a bitch.'"

The proof presented from the pen of the Armenians own historian is that the state of Armenia founded what it called its American colony in 1919. Armenia sent paid agents and thousands of its people to the United States and other Christian nations for one basic purpose—to lobby and beg for money for what they claim as their "ancient" homeland. The work of this Armenian "American colony" continues to this very day. As any reader can clearly see from the above messages I have received, Armenians have an Old World imperialist attitude toward the United States. Take all the resources of its American colony to the "ancient" homeland of Armenia and never send anything back into the colony from Armenia.

Many Armenians have written, attacking me for being a paid agent of the Turkish government. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I have offered to allow the Armenian Assembly of America to examine my bank records for the past five years to prove that I am a teller of the truth. I also asked the Armenian Assembly of America to at allow me to examine their bank and financial records to determine if any of my tax money has been diverted from the Armenian government to this lobby organization. The Armenian Assembly of America's answer is silence.

I have concluded that Armenians are taught to hate Turks
and Muslims from birth. The following message was sent to me that makes this point. It is typical of the many I have received: “Turks are all dogs, liars, and represent the very worst of the human condition, they are a cancer on this earth, the most amazing thing is they've become more of a problem for the world
now then they've ever been."

Turkey has been a true and loyal friend as well as a partner of the United States since World War II. The Turks fought side by side with American troops in Korea, the Gulf War, and other wars since World War II. Where was Armenia? On the opposing side every time.

Turkey is the only democratic Muslim nation in the world. It is in the best interests of the United States and the world to continue friendship with this important nation in the Near East.

Let me make it very clear that all Armenians are not bad people and not all Armenians are terrorists. Permit me to share "in- example why I can say that all Armenians are not bad people. Consider what one lovely Armenian lady wrote to me.

"Armenians are taught hate from birth and I know it is extremely wrong that it has been aimed at the Turkish. I myself do have very close Turkish friends and I love them with all my heart. I don't think it is right to say hateful and bad things against all Armenians. I have nothing against Turks and I think the Turks have made wonderful contributions to the world through their culture. I am a Christian, although I am not traditional Armenian Orthodox.

"I do believe that whatever has or hasn't happened, it should he forgiven for that would be the most 'Christ like' for all of us in do. We should work on building a relationship between Armenia and Turkey that will make both countries prosper. It's sad that two great cultures cannot contribute to each other and remain peaceful. Anyway, I hope that this email might change something."

In a follow-up email she wrote: "I know it is sad that Armenia is the first Christian nation in the world but doesn't show any 'Christ like' actions. I love Armenians, and I love God. 1 don't know about Baptist churches being persecuted but I have noticed that many Armenians that 1 know get a little upset when I tell them I'm not the traditional Armenian Apostolic like they are (fake Christianity used to have a social circle I have noticed). I in fact am a nondenominational born-again Christian."

There is hope that in the years to come there will be a change in the present "official" Armenian terrorist attitudes as evidenced by this lady's beautiful message.

I ask every reader of this book to examine the words I have written with an open mind. I ask every reader to check out the facts I have presented for themselves to determine if the material I have presented is true. The reader will note that I use more Armenian sources and proof than from all other sources combined. Once the reader determines truth it will be for that individual to determine what additional action he or she should do to right a great wrong done to the Muslim world in the name of Jesus Christ.


Samuel A. Weems,
member of Calvary Baptist Church, Hazen, Arkansas,

Well,it s interesting.It s good to see some reviews by Americans.



regards.

Yes,it is interesting.Weems is well known for that book.A retired judge who writes a historical book,fanatic batist to the point of having his book pubblished from baptist book editor,giving religious distinction in his book ,with presentation of his book in the Azerbaijan ministry of Foreign Affairs page and don't know if in the turkish too...

I had an old pdf on Weems,but the site is down.In any case,there is something very weird going on...

In this turkish site about Weems,it also gives the Home page of St. John Press

http://www.atmg.org/SamWeems1.html

Well,currently,seems it is transformed into "Turkish resources".ROFLMAO! Turks took over the site? Turks bought the domain? Turks were behind the St John Press or what? :blink: Armenian hackers?

http://www.stjohnpress.com/


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Miscellaneous Resources

temp
temp





Home

very interesting...

:)

what's interesting in miscelaneous resources?It seems like a loop going back to the initial page.Seems unfinished ,hence the "temp".

exactly.I say same things with you.It seems a "hacker job".

It could be.We ll see in a few days.They can't keep the site hacked forever.If they were Armenian hackers though,i would have expected something much more aggressive,slogans against Turkey etc.Also a bit strange that they got in such bother to put so many turkish links...

I HAVE been to that site about 2 years ago and it was indeed the editor of that book(it was first page).WE ll see.

Universal justice, Turkish lies? Lies have bought you a per capita income of under $4000 per year. If the germans admitted to the atrocities, it is time for the Turks to admit the truth. If not, you will be unable to disolve your culture/religion, and be newly molded as "Europeans" P.S. This is not a spiteful reply, it is the truth. My Turkish friends, the E.U. expects this of you.

what does Europe expects from me?

such as Europe or European Politicians?

why doesnt East countries wait nothing while West expect something?

why do we not open Armenian Archieves while our archieves fully opened?

why dont we see some other real genocides acceptance instead of no-proof claims?

why dont you(personal) indicate us some real genocides like French-Algeria, USA-apache, Australia-Abogins,Italia-Kartaca etc...?

why dont we find any proof about genocide in historical correspondences,historical documents,historical papers in Ottoman,British,Russian archieves?do we burn them? of course not,so why?

why do we find some real proofs in Russia and British,Ottoman archieves according to relocation? why do you imply to type genocide instead of relocation?

how can you wait from us while you have not any proof related to claims?

why dont you show us these people s papers "Armin Theophil Wegner,Admiral Mark Bristol,Boghos Nubar Pasha,Aram Andonian and the Talat Pasha Telegrams,Leslie Davis and Other American Consuls,Sworn Statement of Albert J. Amateau" and many people reviews?

and why do you very much interest in so called claims?

if you want to see us in EU, we must see some Europeans honesty level in especially that issue.



(firstly, we must respect real history and historians instead of politicians)


regards.