If you try to argue with Turks on the internet about history, politics or national issues you learn very quick you are not dealing with a nation thinking for themselves. What most of them do is only repeat their official state ideology.

The Greek government needs to put millions of Euros each year to nail the Kemalist official ideology in Germany, USA, Britain. If the Turkish state wants to make claims against Greek history and territory let the rest of the world know some of the below facts(enough meetings of Greek delegations in front of portraits of Kemal too) :

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.book-fair.com/en/index.php?cont...70/content.html
"Banned Books 2000–2005: 284
The ban has been abolished for 47 titles..
Source: Turkish Publishers’ Association Freedom of Publishing Report (June 2006)"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=20827&Valider=OK
"At least 65 people, including many journalists and writers, have been prosecuted under article 301 of the new criminal code introduced on 1 June 2005. The article, headed “Denigration of Turkishness, the republic and state organs and institutions,” provides for between six months and three years in prison for “anyone who openly denigrates the government, judicial institutions or military or police structures.”"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bianet.org/2006/11/01_eng/news92579.htm

"These practices are simply pristine and totally unlawful, says Kıvanç Eliaçık from the new Students' Union Initiative, commenting on the increasing number of administrative inquisitions towards dissident students at universities around the country.

...

"Protestation without permission", "chanting slogans", "participating in press conference" are grounds according to the university rectorate for disciplinary action.

In the last four months 72 inquisitions had been placed and seven students who reacted against the yearly tuition had been punished."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is wrong with Kemalist Ýdolgy !

it is a quite a good one.

Secularist independant country which is called Turkey !

I think the above shows what is wrong...

No one can criticize in universities, books or as a journalist, the official ideology without serious problems.

you can critize .

even now our prime minister is a person who has been perisoned becasue of a poem he read.

but now he is a primeminister.

our some universities are universty . some arent !!

and sometings are ilagal to say .

lets seperate turkey in two pieces and lets work on it. you cant. every counrty must defence it self.

can you say that greete must be separeted from greece and must be free.
and i will fork for it and die for it.

if you say this in athen in front of every body no body would react ??

1)Banning 284 books from 2000-2005
2)prosecuting 65 journalists and writers since 1 June 2005 till when the RSF annual report on Turkey was written
3)systematically targetting dissident students

That is not really allowing criticism or freedom of speech. The above explain how the official Turkish state ideology is maintained.

Even Turkey takes great steps to maintain its official ideology abroad:

So that in the USA Kemalist official history can be taught:

A nice stipulation from the Turkish state so Turks in Germany, Netherlands, etc. have the right to criticize their host country, but if they want dual citizienship try not to criticize Turkey(insult Turkishness or publicly denigrate state institutions)

Kokoro, in Greece you can say anything you want about anyone/anything you want. And it has been like this for ever. What you cannot say is clear lies, and claim them as true to denegrate someon/something for political or monetary gain, or to disfame someone. Ex. you CAN say Papandreaou is gay and likes young boys if you are a citizen - unless you were activly trying to do it for your own gain. if you are a politician and say it in a way where you are trying to get people to take you seriously so you can put him down, then that is illigal. Otherwise you can say whatever you want. We have newspaper that specialize in just that - and realy make fun of politicians, police, militare, church, and other things! Its called the "Pontiki" - the mouse. its hilarious!! :lol:

To think that you can be arrested for expressing any view you wish - nomatter what - is pretty medival IMHO...

this is how we make fun of our president !
and he sew the comýc book . and high court decided that . u can be a president so so can be make fun of . !! no problem. ;)

we have a word in turkish (animal world). for rude people .
and this says tayip world
and make him in to 7 difrent animals.

;)
only insulting our nation is forbiden. not critizing.

If one read some posts,comments or whatever.Wherever he'll get the idea that he is not talking with normal people...He'll get the idea that he is talking with state correspondands or... an AI... I mean turkish point of view is like a copy paste all over the net media blah blah blah...

Somehow in a weird art of way...
I envy the Turks for this...
You know what i mean...

They are maybe hungry (sort of saying) but there national feelings stays allways high...
They dont take shit from know one in matters of National feelings etc etc...
we?..we are even have discussion about matters which we shouldnt have...

Ok i admit...you cant have often have a dialoque officially with Turks especially in the Net...(But if you speak with Turks private...they do critisize very much there country...like all of us do...)
or if they know that you are on a logical level...they do also admit there mistakes and wrong views...
I dont know...

You would rather prefer an open democracy lord or a state in which you cant say anything opposing/defying the official state?

my friends world is changing .
we all change

after the last election s a pkk member is in the parliament .

an Akp member (ruling religious party ) said in the parliament that we dont need Kemalist idology in Turkey !( he perefers a islamist regime)

if we didnt have democracy could these be happened.
this too much democracy will lead us to dictatorship.

Kokoro: That is funny because it proves my point. A Pkk member is in Parliament does any Kemalist Turk have any proof for that? Let me guess you got that from the ultra-nationalistic Turkish media and no one is gonna get punished for making such libelous accusations against Leyla Zana(my guess) since she is not a good Kemalist ideologue and struggles for Kurdish rights e instead of waiting for the crumbs of token tolerance of the official Turkish state ideology. What if I was a Turkish journalist and with the same lack of proof I called Buyukanit an Armenian sperm? It would not take long for article 301 to hit me, death threats, violent attacks from Turkish nationalist frenzied mobs, etc.

I think deep down you and every Turk knows this distinction of what article 301 is usually used against but Turks have to hide from the rest of the world such facts or else all the work to create a hugely false positive image of Turkey would be wasted.

Lord: What do you mean Turks admit their wrong views? All the years over the net only one Turk on all the dozens of military forums ever went against the official Kemalist state created portrayl of the FIR issue. There is an official state created ideology in Turkey and no Turk really can go against it without a backlash. I do not mean criticize, I mean to actually stand against their official state created positions on national issues. I mean for once a Turk to actually examine an issue for himself with some kind of research instead of defending their official state positions.

my friend how can explain Kemalizm . it is nationazim but not fasizm.

the article 301 is one of the most strong part of our lesislative law.

basicly we cant humilate in a bad way of turkish nation. we dont let it.

we can make fun of everything president , prime minister army every thing religion , fasists even Atatürk . but we can make fun of it in a humorious way .
not insulting.

also this article represents not only being turkish. also protects other nations.


few moths ago
in istanbul a apartment the apartment manager ( jew ) and a apartment resident had afight( turkish )
and sudenly the turkýsh guy started to shout as turkey belongs to turks and jews out !. and the jew guy sew him for insulting a religiously way and win in the court in 3 case in 2 moths.


dont look at the laws in one way. look all. it protecs turks . also other nations and religions. if it didnt why would we still have all those churchs. even we had so much problem. ? or rich christian or jew groups in here.??

there are lots of things ýn books. but there are lots of things in reality too.
and dont forget if there werent Mustafa Kemal. there would be 1.300.000 Otoman greek to sent to greece . the number would be 300 .000 as Greece sent us.


stay well
Kaan

My friend all these things are what democracy isn't :)

As we both dont have ;)

Dont you even dare comparing a coup wth a democracy!!!! :Cursing:

trying to stop turkish speaking radios on the east part of greece.
forcing them to speak greek not turkish ! is it democracy ??
yesterdays news ! ;)
even we have kurdish speaking radio chanels .
we have a mýlitary coupe . you have what now ?

http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?habern...arih=31/07/2007

related news. i cound t fýnd the english.

<_<

Trying to stop Turkish-army....erm government controlled radios yes it is not democratic but what can one do?Maybe the US of A should try spreading democracy to your side...But oh i forgot...They did all these years ago..As they did to us too in 1967 but fortunatelly enough we got rid of them....Did you? No...You still have the all seeing, all controling, all punishing/warding army...The bad thing is that you have learned to chew the islamidiot gum threat very well....In fact you adore it..But oh come on..Why would i ruin your party once again?..Someone, once said that those poor in mind are wealth in everything else(that is not a personal insult)..
No kokoro dearest we, here do not have a perfect democracy but you know...We have one..You have a coup all dressed up as a democracy because that is the way someone beyond you wants it that way..On the other hand you dont seem willing to spill even a tiny bit of blood for this thing called democracy...Turkey for me is like russia..Russia had a czar,then another czar and now has another the only thing that changes is the name of the Czar ;)

some cases i dont agree with you but in some cases i do agree with you !

democracy is freedom till where the others freedom starts. for me basicly !

our democrasiy is this. trying to improve it.
your democracy ans Usa s democracy russia democray. everybody has their own way of apliying it.

for me democracy could only be given to people who deserves it mentaly and idologly.


for me i prefer fair dictatorship. for my people.

but basicly nobody elses democracy is better that others. ;) .

may be your country has more civil rights than ours. but we have our special situations. ( pkk, islamist lunatics, arap lovers, russia lovers,europe lovers,usa slaves, fasits,mafia, zoofilis,necrofilis. we have every body.

so we cant be so democratic.
look yesterday new member of parliament (pkk lover)
in hýs regýstratýon form for his foreign language section he wrote Turkish! :angry:

in greece parliament there is a turkish guy . can he do some thing like this rude.!! can he write my foreign language is greek and my native language is Turkish. but here people can do it. and use democracy for their main goals.

Kaan

The fact that all these things exist there, doesnt mean you cant protest...Loudly against your government...If someone goes to ankara central square and starts shouting, fak buyukanit or kemal was gay blah blah blah he will end up in cell where the sun shine cant reach...It is like between 2 evils you accept the lesser one...Well thats an american way of thinking and it has to do with this positive thinking trend mentioned in another thread.Between 2 evils you choose none! You condemn and overthrow both.
Democracy is one thing very clearly specified 2500 years ago the thing is that modern "scholars" try to find and distinguish what democracy is..Well there is no USICAN democracy,no Russian democracy...Theres just one democracy.-
I have to remind you once again that accoriding to our contitution and according to a between us agreement there is no other ethnic minority but a religious one.Some people from your side may laugh but...Its the way things were and are.- As a result this guy whatever his name maybe cant say greek is my foreign language because he is a greek citizen.Never the less we give the right to those muslims to self "claim" that they're turkish,alien,pakistani,iraqi or what ever.Look at what you did the past 50+ years...
You know excuses are like a cetain part of our body..Both stink...

yes turks there say they are greek citizens and their language is greek and foreign language is english. normal and respect to the ruling country.

here they say we are kurdish our maýn language ýs kurdish and foreign language is turkish. disrespectful act.
so our war is very dirty . and will become very very nasty in the future.


and can u shout in Athen the greek army comander is gay . venizelos is big looser and made 100 000 greek soldiers killed in anatolia..
and police would look at you ??
ý think they would arest you too???

The only law close to that is the one concerning the flag,if you burn a flag it is considered a national symbol offence.That's it. Ofcourse you can say our army ommander is gay...The only one that will pursue you will be the army commander for personal offence for calling him gay.In a legal court..Not court martial etc etc etc.

same here too.

if you are a civilian . army would sew you first. than he sew you , in goverment security courts. ( sounds not good in english ) <_<
if you are a soldier court marchial would start.
if you are a soldier you cant think oficers think and you aply and obey . no doubting.

dont think that when u say some thing some body would come and shoot you .
realy do you realy see here like this.???
Kaan

The difference stands that there the army would sue you first..Well here he can(the general) sue you only because you offended him ;)
And no i dont think that everytime someones says something you shoot him..But..The Turkish state has shown its true face countless times...I need not to say more.

we dont shoot any body lately !!
we have new cluster bombs !! ;)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH :lol: :lol: :lol:






Tomorow remind me to laugh..

KOKORO, I have no idea why you try to deny it. Turkey has an official state ideology to encompass important "national issues". When someone in Turkey challenges this ideology by openly publishing a book or newspaper article they face legal problems and alot of physical attacks that appear to come from the society at large(but in the past have been proven to be directed by the deep state).

As to the Turkish radio stations in Greece, according to news articles there are six Turkish language radio stations currently broadcasting in Greece. Which sounds too many to me for such a small community to support. The law only really threatens stations without a license which is most stations broadcasting in Greece period(and not just Turkish language broadcasts).

20 000 radio stations for greece is ok?

in the new it said to be 20 000 radio stations and 4 turkish radios. may be 6

for 14 000 000 greece 20 000 radio not to much ?
and only 6 radio sations for how may turks there i dont know 100 000 ?

even we have kurdish radios more than 300 .

and for the statement.

so of the things you say is true but ottoman empire has never used courts against the christians or the jews!

jew and christians rule the country !!. read it. when fatih sultan mehmet died his son told that . my father was christian. let him die.
for yavuz he never atack west . directy atack to anaolian turks and iran.

other wise there would be no arab no greek no jew left after 400 years.
that is a fact . books can write to much things . and writers can crate thing by writing so after 1 or two genration later people would start to belive that.

but reality is always reality.

christians has their law and jews had their law. and muslims have their law.
only
if there is a murder. muslim law gets in hand.

For faks sake kokoro you keep saying the same bullshit again and again!!!Everyone here seems to like you because you play it differently from the others of your side.All this time now you kept saying how much alike we look,same temper blah blah blah..Well dearest i'm fed up with you bullshit!!
Say that you're no different than the others and everyone will stop posting...And yes there might be 6 stations in greece but for FAKS SAKE TURKISH co-SPEAKING CITIZENS LIVE ONLY IN THRACE!!!Would you be happier if there were 6 Greek and 20k turkish speaking radios?If yes,you should know that we'll keep that inmind because we want every bloody Turk to be satisfied!! OH FAK OFF MAN!!!WERE THERE ANY GRREK SPEAKING CHANNELS OR RADIO STATIONS EVER IN TURKEY?Get your shit together and stop acting like a wolf under a sheep's coat!!!

As much as I would like to get into a debate about minorities with Turks I will not because they will not change. Turkey will always treat its minorities bad, then scream and demand for others to treat Turks like pashas.

Look at what I emboldened. Out of nowhere he just felt to the need to drop out in words an implication that the Turkish nation is in mortal danger and they have nowhere to leave for.

Also he has some words against EU:

my friend Nikephoros,

i would galdly make my signuture under this staement.
he is the only true speaker. for being democratic will we let people take our land. that
what ??
egea to greece north to russia. south to italians. ?? east to armenians.

europe plays ýts cards as they were ýn ototman týme. ! un fortunatly we have a fame of destroying every bodies plans in one week . :lol: during the world history.

we wont let this country to be like Yugoslavia. ;) best regards.
Kaan.

Oh well kokoro i guess that you'll have to eradicate the Kurds too or give them land..Because in the end i think it is de facto that you'll end up like yugoslavia..You said it your self..Everybody wants small, easily controlled states..
I guess since you cant help your selves but act like the ottoman empire then EU will act as if you're it.On the other hand do not forget that if it werent for european powers Turkey wouldnt have the size it has today..

Nice thread gents, but just a comment:

Yes there IS only one democracy... and we DONT have it. Exoume emesi dimocratia, oxi amesi. We have a representitive republic, not a direct democracy. HUGE difference. As a nation we are too lazy to implement true democracy. So lets say it like it is...

Other than that, its true Turkey doesn't have the freedoms we do, but the cannot afford it. Thier society is not homogenous or mature enough for it. If they had democracy it would only be a catalyst for a mullahcracy. The system they have in place is the best for THEM. And while we talk about democracy, when did we ever show our balls to the US? After '74? after the Phone scandals? Only Papandreou A. ever showed balls to them when he kicked out Hellinikon and told them they cannot use Greece to attack Lybia. All gov's after him were/are pussies. Turkey at least shoved a MASSIVE cock up GWBush's ass when they told him he can't to invade through thier country. That was very democratic!

Wouldnt be correct if we checked the reasons why they did that?
If there's one or 2 yes countries around here i think we all know who these are..

2001 realy what hapend was

usa thrusted erdogan goverment that our goverment would let them in through here.

and he bargained them . for money usa agreed to give 40 billion dolars. and control of north iraq ( behind the doors) .
so we will have petroleum areas back ,
we will have money , etc etc.

but erdoðan wanted like 100 býlýon dolars. becasue of this us calls this horse bargaing like in texas. so they droped the barganing.


and to say politely no erdoðan ask the Turkish represntatýves consil.
550 delegations vote as their city peoples wish.

what ever we get or loose. it wont be right to help a foreing power to invade a neighbour country would be right.
so people said no .

becasue of this US now helps kurds. and dont reply our cals.
but now. he is loosing his ground every day. in iraq.

and he will try to do same thing in iran.
by using a kurdish army.
but at the end they will go some day.
and neighbours will be stay together.

2 moths ago we had a visitor from iraq he buys shoe sloes from my uncle ans selles them in baðdat. and talk alot with him.

he saýd very difrent thýngs.

even he has 5 shpos in bagdat and has to travel every day to control them
he sees no us troops in 4 days . all in secure zones.

if you travel from one city to another. check poýnts can start to shoot without warning.

now iraq is full of islamic fighters. arabs pakis .....

and nobody forgets when tv said Turkey didnt let USA go from his soil.
every body was sure in irak that Us play with Turkey as pupet and sadam was turkey enemy. so people thýnk turkey would let them through.

and when Turkey said no . he says . we cry at home.

for me not helping usa created a kurdistan in our south part.
in the short run it hurts us .and would continue hurting us.

but when the spoiled big boy leaves the area. traitors are punished without any mercy in these lands.
history has writen it many times.

we , sunie and sia . would become a hostle against kurds.
and they will suffer alot

Kaan.

Well, you know better than me, but IMO, Kurdistan would happen anyway, help or not. And if you did help, you would get screwed even more because they would stab you after you helped them. The decision was the moraly correct one, and also IMO the politicaly correct one. USA is burning its reputation everywhere, and any friend of the US will burn with them...

Kemalisim is necessary in Turkey, we are nationalist country we are the country that killed 2 English men for ripping Turkish money with a picture of the founder Mustafa Kemal Atatürk on it and wiping it on their behind.

We are the Nation that killed a British Greek Leeds fan for riping the Turkish flag and also wiping it on his behind.

We have respect for our Nation and flag, we have got through many rough times and we think other countries should respect their flag too.

We went to Rhodes with my cousins on holiday and the Greeks have their flag printed on Bra's, Bikinis, pants.

a flag of a nation deserves better, that flag is what represents you, so respect it.

why is Kemalisim Necessary? because western and American "culture" is brainwashing youths of non-western countries, they are forgetting about there own culture, English words are making their way into the everyday lives of youths so Kemalisim must be there to stop this!

We have one of the best cultures of the world, and we need to protect it.

I missed the true importance statement for a long time, and it took me a while to understand, because it is hard for Westerners to understand the Turkish mentality. This speech by Ataturk, is the best proof: that Turks are meant to be subjects of the Turkish state and not citiziens. Because to be a citizien, the state takes obligations toward you and you have certain "unalienable rights", a subject is meant to have absolutely loyal even if he gets nothing in return. On the contrary in Nutuk, Turks are told that their only existence is the Turkish state.

If any Greek is interested, PM me and I will feed them historical sources to OCR so we cannot allow the Turks to constantly make lies at our expence. For example look at how Turks praise Ataturk all the time all over the intenert. Then look at some of his choice words like above, which they will never offer up to Greeks voluntarily because we can use these words against them.

Turkish Youth! your primary duty is ever to preserve and defend the National independence of the Turkish Republic.

That is the sole foundation of your existence and your future. This foundation is your most precious treasure. In the future too, too there will be ill-will, both in the country itself and abroad, which will try to tear this treasure from you. If one day you are compelled to defend your independence and the Republic, then, in order to fullfil your duty ... It is possible that the enemies who desire to destroy your independence and your Repubic represent the strongest force that the earth has ever seen; that they have, through craft and force, taken possession of all the fortresses and arsenals of the homeland; that all its armies are scattered and the country actually completely occupied.

Assuming, in order to look still darker possibilities in the face, that those who hold the power of Government within the country have fallen into error, that they are fools or traitors, yes, even that these leading persons can identify their personal interests with the enemy's political goals, it might happen that the nation came into complete privation, into the most extreme distress; that if found itself in a condition of ruin and complete exhaustion.

Even under those circumstances, Turkish child of future generations, it is your duty to save the independence of the Turkish Republic.

The strength that you will need for this is the noble blood which flows in your veins.



that is what i would make my signature .
even our casteles are invaded
all armies are scattered.
and country could be totaly invaded.
policitons could be in false way or being treatory.

you will not think your self and and to save the indepence of the Republic
you will act .

you will act in all ways. even you have to sacrifice your self .
waht you will need is you already have in your noble blood.


that is what 70 000 000 million knows with heart and brain.
it is writen.
and we are proud of this words.

Does your leaders have these kind of words ?? King or any important Man who save greece from invations ?? ;)