Very good analysis...(in greek) taken from greek defence magazines written by George Nezis..

Dedicated to greeks abroad... ;)

From what my poor eyes can read, its a beautiful article. Says alot of things I've been saying since I served. It stresses the need for more capable, trasportable and moderns syastems, and a intigrated defence capability for all islands, rather than case by case. One thing however it did not mention, is that, the hardest weapon we have to replace is manpower. We can replace materials, but how can we replace warriors? Turkey can replace them almost ad infinium. If we are to sustain a 1-7 or even 1-15 attrition rate, we must protect our warriors as well as possible. This means kevlar helmets, ceramic armour, knee and elbow pads, glasses, the full package. For the cost of 1-2 planes, we can fully protect every soldier on every island. That will make a HUUUUUGE difference. Will 1 or 2 extra planes make that big a difference???

Another thing we must do is create proper cover from the shelling that will take place pefore an incursion. We must have integrated tunnels, or "L" trenches in strategic locations, where infantry can pop-up at will and fire AT rounds, and then quickly take cover again. 5 excavators and a few weeks will do miracles. This is not a big deal, but it is not being done as much as it should. At Parmenion 1993 (I believe) in which I did not partake, but watched with my father that was in the ministry of the Aegean, they had infantry fire Milan AT rounds at amphibious targets. The infantry was fireing from almost level to the sea (not elevated) positions, and not well protected. As the cable of the Milan would sag, it would touch the sea and short-circut. You could see the milans drop into the sea far from the target. Now we fire from elevated positions, to allow for the sag of the wire. Point is, we did not learn this lesson the hard way. We should not learn to protect our warriors the hard way either...

Excactly some points of the articel...

same thing s here too.

we buy 30 new f 16 s 50 atack helicopters. but still army use g 3 or 3 difrent helmet. or old designed boots which are heavy!!!

All good points.

As for a 1-7 attrition rate, if Turkey plans an amphibious or airborne assualt over well fortified well defended islands without complete air and sea control not even a 50-1 manpower superiority will help them.Its logistically impossible.

Tunnelling and protected from air attack passes would also be good cover for defenders.

Just thinking,historically most middle eastern nations put their greatest effort (for resons of morale I"d imagine) in their initial trust so Greek forces must be well prepared for sudden attack.If an initial attack is survived intact all the problems are on the attacker.

Having recently toured the units of the Army on the islands of the SE Aegean, I can say that training is at a peak, especially as concerns tactical matters. The issue is as someone mentioned that staffing is at a low level in most units, although strike forces (armor, infantry) are kept at a high level of manning. Weapons are adequate in quality and quantity, and there is an adequacy of emplacements and defensive infrastructure. The issue of reserves is crucial, but on the larger islands (Kos, Rhodes, Samos) the reservist pool is adequate. What the military fear most is not a head-on attack against one of the islands, but rather the seizing of an unguarded islet or outcropping in order to reinforce "grey zone" claims by Turkey. That's why emphasis is being given in maintaining small rapidly deployable forces on a constant readiness, while also reinforcing the observation abilities with radar and electro-optic sensors.

Welcome, thimis :friendship:

Good to hear your confidence in our Island defences. How do you react to events that show Turkey aquiring more threatening weapontry against the Islands? Specificaly, rockets and missiles and extended atry reach. They can bombard, in some cases the whole island, while we have no room to move. In the event (as you said less likely) that an island faces an assault, surely bombardment will be the 1st step, and it will continue all the way untill its too dangerous because of the proximity of their attack force. Do you think our personell are well enough protected to withstand an thorough bombardment?

Welcome Thimis... welcomeWCF

I know our islands have nice hotels ashore!! That would make our stand there at least a very nice and relaxing stand!! :P

Ýs mikanos defended well becasue only this year 7000 turkish universty and young kids go there ;)

they say there are 1 or 2 discos that people can dance :D
Kaan

Are islands are very well armed.Turkey can't take them over. Let me introduce a new weapon on the islands. Asrad hellas short range air defence system.
54 are in service in aegean.





http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php...=1158&Itemid=47

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php...=1158&Itemid=47

Very good info Angelo, did not know that. Our answer to Atilgan and Zipgan. Lets see what Nutuk will think of this :lol: Only problem is how limited the stinger missile is... How many systems are in one PCP? Good to see they will be integrated with IADS, and even more cool to see that they can integrate info with MANPAD stingers!! :applause: :applause:

Any info on the radar?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASRAD-HELLAS



All the info you need Thermopyles :drink:

http://www.miltech.gr/Projects_SHORADS_ASRAD_3_5_1.htm



http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/index.php?lang=3&fid=2665



some more info about Asrad Hellas B)

we are both copy each other ! we have the same platforms with stingers. mobile ones.

also after the iraq war now we copleted the pasive radar sytems . if they pass the tests we wýll produce nearly 40 50 pasive radar with the range of 60 km !!

so the alarm missles cant hit them.

http://wowturkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16387&start=10

The single biggest issue may be Greece`s ability to combine the apparent inability to maintain an adequate fiscal policy with the existing pressure.

Turkey is in another condition due to the strengthening economy and fundamentally different demographics.

"existing pressure" in what form? External, internal, military?

The pressures are possibly multifaceted and ,up to a certain extent, interrelated.


It might be necessary to hypothesize which role the different categories of participants, you mentioned, play, that is to find the precise interests they have in the matter (monetary, ideological,personal...).

Artillery is a double edged sword, it cuts both ways. If the islands are in range so are their guns. One has to also consider, what exactly the THK will be doing. If it's main role is to nullify the HAF then it will at least keep it busy. If it is delegated to close support then it will start losing aircraft because of attrition (AA and mechanical). In this event one may see its supposed preponderance erode very quickly. Quickly enough to allow the HAF to take offensive action. I am also not sure what the Turkish artillery will do, given that Greek units on the islands will either move to hidden positions (theseis diasporas) as soon as there is a whiff of a crisis. Given that an assault will require an offensive bombardment, the Turkish army will immediately show its hand and the positions of its artillery, and will lay itself open to counter-battery fire.

As to another theory that has recently seen much play in the press, that of the airborne assault. I want to point out that in this case the Turks will have to use all their available helicopter forces to move the necessary special forces and commando units in for the assault. If this has no other back-up it will inevitably fail. The first wave will suffer casualties that are irreplaceable. Successive waves will mean mounting equipment losses and lack of adequate means to support troops already ashore. Also helicopters cannot transport heavy equipment, meaning that initial troops may be cut up by local armor.

Airborne assault is suicide... it may only work on Samos and thats it. As for defence of beaches (landing sites), I'm not convinced that our defencive positions (for ex. at Plota excersizes) are good enough. IMO we need more and better-deeper defencive positions. These need to be put in place before hand, because the areas are very rocky, the soldier cannot do it by hand. They need to be prepared ahed of time with excavators and dynamite.

As for your other points about Arty, they are well taken, with only the note that they have more area for shoot-n-scoot than we do (assuming they can), leaving us to be reacitve in some cases. Especialy if longer range rockets are used that are out of range of our arty. And by the time we get rockets back to them, they can have time to move, no?

We need to be able to by time for our infantry. Time for HN, arty and HAF to minimize bombardment threat. And simply moving to B' klimakia/thesis diasporas may not be enough with the cover we have and the intel they have...

Let me add to words...key words in my opinion...and as an amateur expert on military issues...
If the 2 Ilsand in the Aegean wont be under Turkish controll...any occupation of an major important Island is not possible for Turkey (and they Know it very well)
And im not talking about a goat islet for Political propaganda...and political support games...(aka Imia)
Iam talking about the cruisall Island in the North called Limnos...
and the second is Rodos...
Third...and vital for any action in the Aegean is Crete...
Without having a shure airsuperiority ...and without this important islands...
its simply a NO GO...for further actions...

To right.

From a strategic point of view if Turkey wants to enlarge her sea space all large eastern Aegean Islands must be conquered.................one or two wont do.

Good intelligence is the key to defeating any amphibious invasion. Even with the terrible intelligence we had prior to the 1974 Cyprus invasion, if we had paid attention to what little we had we could have been fully prepared for it and defeated it on the beaches.

Turkey can't invade a major Greek island without weeks of preparation which will be in full view of Greek intelligence satellites and aerial reconnaisance. The key is reacting to their buildup when we first detect it, and not let the politicians drag the military's feet to avoid "bringing things to a head when they can still be stopped".

At the first sign of preparation for an amphibious assault the Greek forces need to move heavy artillery, tanks, AA capability and top-notch infantry defense forces to the expected areas of conflict. That will denote protecting the sea lanes of resupply with naval and air forces. Further, Greek AIP subs should be deployed to engage expected Turkish submarine attempts to interdict lines of resupply and communications.

I'm sure the Greek military has battle plans already drawn up for this contingency. The key is does the Greek government have the will to react forcefully when needed? Or will they waffle-repeatedly like they did in 1974?

As badly armed, supplied and trained as the Cypriot National Guard forces were in 1974, if they had even a small amount of heavy artillery they could have defeated Turk invasion forces on the beaches of Kyrenia. No question about it. Let us never again be caught in a situation where our forces are forced to fight an invading army with inadequate arms, intelligence and political support!

Yes this are important points...
let me say this...
Even in 1996 (imia krisis) the greek intelegence haid infos 24 hours earlyer..
The Turkish TV showed the SAT teams entering Buses...LIVE...moving to Imia...
We knowed whats going to happen...or we could imagine...anyway
But our Chickens (politicans) thought otherwise...and sacrifized...there own soldiers...
Not only in blood(heli) but also in shame...only to save there own ass...
after 10 years the books that are written about the insitent...are very informatic...about our fools...and about there mistakes...

One thing went only good for the greek army...
They waked up...and since than ...alot of things changed...in a positive way.

also to come close to the Islands the TUAF...has to fly over this babes...

Unfortunately, the Greek leadership never changes. Karamanlis doesn't impress me as a man to take a tough stand with the Turks. Would he mobilize troops if intelligence told him the Turks appeared to be assembling amphibious forces off a major Greek island? Or would he pick up a phone and call his good buddy Erdogan to ask him what was going on?

And look at the opposition, Georgaki. He's nothing but a dancing clown.

Greeks elect political hacks for their leaders. Have for many decades. I blame the Greek press, which has trivialized important issues.

We don't have even a Hawk base on Rhodes?

It's been along time since I've posted. Good topic.

I don't see how any assault against the Aegean islands could succeed without control of the air and sea around the islands. For this, the THK and Turkish naval forces will never be able to take control of the air and seaspace against the PA and PN without suffering such attrition that they would subsequently be unable to control the air and seaspace.

Having the ERIEYE is one of the key aspects of defense of the Aegean because it prevents the Turks from assembling aircraft, warships and landing craft without their intended objectives being transparent to Hellenic defense forces. Assaulting the eastern Aegean islands by Turkey would be political and military disaster and would occur only out of desperation.

Also, the PN has the advantage of the central position in the Aegean against the Turkish navy, which needs to mass from the Mediterranean in the south and from the Sea of Marmara/Black Sea through the Dardanelles in the north.

Turkish invasion of any major or even minor Island is very unlikely to be successful. The lack the amphibious capability to carry it off-assuming any degree of resistance on the part of the Greek military.

But, it's possible for Turkey to invade and capture one of the small islets, thousands of which exist just a few miles off the Turkish coast. They are mostly uninhabited and easy to occupy. It would be strictly a political military victory for the Turks, but if their government was in deep trouble they might try something like that to get the people off their backs.

Yes indeed...to some points...
Though Turkey showed in the past...the nececary strenght and power to make such moves...
Cyprus for excamble was maybe the most missarable military invassion the world has ever seen...
But its done...they made it.
Idont want to talk about the political -geostrategic situations at this times...and tha balance of forces that cyprus was not Greece...that they haid no aircrafts not this not that.. etc etc (we have talked abouted 100 times)
wich frankly said...it was...
our own stupitidy... BUT...The Turks catched the oppurtunity and invaded succesfully...
I doubt if lets say...The Turksih army falls into parts....wiped of the earth...or desapired....If than a greek politician of the todays fat-asses we have seeting in our parlament...would catch the oppurtunity to gain from such a situation...
allways the politicans...and there right moves ...and the right leadership...wins together with the willingness of the people a war....

Landos...a system like the Hawk is un-nececary on Rodes...IMO
The major Islands of today a very good covered...aka OSA...TOR...Asrad...Artemis...Stingers..Crotale... etc etc...

ps OYK..welcome back

The Greek leadership had weeks of intelligence showing Turkey was getting ready to invade Cyprus. They ignored it.

The leadership in Greece in 1974 was mostly bunglers and incompetents. Totally unsuited for Civil leadership. Any time they served in prison for their imcompetence wasn't enough.

In addition to being imcompetent, they were cowards. Arapakis and Bonanos were traitors and should be shot. They sold out the Cypriots to gain favor with the US.

Thanks, LORD. It's nice to be back.

With the primacy of the tactical and stragetic defense when everyone has the same weapon systems and no significant performance advantage over the other, like Greece and Turkey, only a factor like surprise could allow the Turks to achieve the occupation of an Aegean island successfully, IMHO.

Greece, as the defender, merely has to defend, which is infinitely easier than attacking. It is incumbent on the Turks to achieve success, and this would have to be through surprise, like the Egyptians achieved against the Israelis in Sinai in 1973. I don't see the Greeks becoming so arrogant as to take the Turks as lightly as the Israelis took the Egyptians in the Yom Kippur War. Thus, I don't see the Greeks letting their guard down to the point where they couldn't see a Turkish offensive being prepared.