Recently the Turkish courts ordered ISPs to block Youtube. Here is a Slashdot(tech news) comments page on this incident. I link to this instead of any news story writeup, because news stories without comments do not enable Turks to try to justify and exonerate their government in front of an international audience that is not religiously participating in the Turkish state.

This brings out to the open how Islam was superseded for alot of Turks by Kemalism. On page 3 of the Freedom of Speech thread on this forum on this forum I already cited the following muslim juridical tradition on the right of non-Muslims to criticize Islam or its prophets:

Obviously this time instead of directly pasting I edited certain things which I denoted with box brackets [ ] to make it more relevant to classical Kemalism rather than classical medieval jurisprudence.

From the PDF study:Crafting A Nation: The Mythic Construction of the New Turkish National Identity in Atatürk’s Nutuk

Ιn 2006 I tried and failed to obtain from the e-retailer Protoporia the Greek translation of Nutuk by Semeon Soltarides but it was expired from the publisher according to them and never shipped to me. If any Greek in Greece would like to buy it to make it harder for Turks to use Western values and terminologies to defend non-Western values, go ahead. It would be time and money better spent than reading any Greek newspaper's take on Greco-Turkish relations.

it seems this can get out of hands ..these kids bring the 2 nations in trouble ....i personaly dont care they can write about gay greeks and shit i really dont care ..we must stay cool on these..DUMP KIDS from both countrys .. :bash:

This is what you got out of this incident? "Dumb kids", did you read anything I wrote?

What the Turks do is more than anything value the sacred Turkish state. So as this concerns us as Greeks, in our arguments with them they are deductive thinkers. With reasonable nations from a Western Christian tradition it is possible for German ex-paratroopers to visit Crete and apologize for their actions and their country's past actions, and to progress and change in their views. But not with Turks.

Hi,


yes you tube is banded and we cant watch 300 trailers now .. esepiacly the new clips <_<

we all watch you tube and those gay things and had laufhed alot. :lol:
greek kids showing turkish soldiers in funny anýmatýons and our kýds makýng greek soldiers ýn colorfull camosand animations . even the singing caresless ( (george michael song )wisper song ( greek soldier) quite nice one.

but when the things move to insulting some body who change the one Nations future . than things do change.
forbiding you tube isnt a good act . u cant stop info in the net !

second thing what do we have to apalogize for ??
Ý would realy advise you to read Atatürks life if he ordered hes army to to take revenge from the greek civilians in egea.
there wouldn t 1.300.000 greek settlers to go to Greece. there would be like same numbers. as we exchange ! 300 000.

yes in the war from 27 august from ankara to izmir 9 september this 12 days we didnt take any prisoners from the greek side ok. But it was war. and it was a war for us to survive . against Otoman Greece England and France .

so nobody had apoligized from us for that 2 3 years period of time .

stay well
Kaan.

So using the sociological phenomenon of translation, you are saying that before freedom of speech is not insulting Turkishness/Kemalism whatever.

So:
Kemalism > freedom of speech

Now from assuming I would have assumed most Kemalist Turks would be OK with cartoons of Mohammed. But from the thread on this subject on this forum we can reach a similar translation from the Turkish consesus on that thread:

So:
Mohammed > freedom of speech

Which is just another example of the selectiveness of the Turks in adopting Western civilization. Afterall they are only interested in adopting some aspects of the science and organization and nothing of the proper conduct or morality.

I meant generally that Turks unlike say Germans are not capable of having differing opinions on certain matters. There are lots of forums where Greeks argue and debate Turks on the Aegean issue and such. The Turks have military like discipline in their universal disregard for Greek territorial sovereignty among other subjects that they have amazing military like imposed unity in.

From an f-16.net thread containing the only Turk ever to my knowledge on a public military forum to break rank from the Turkish state thesis's on the Aegean. He converted to Greek Orthodox after moving to the USA probably superseding for him muslim views of permament warfare against non-muslim states. Compare this to how common it is for example for an American to disagree with his nation's foreign policy. You do not exactly have to look hard for that. But with the Turks you search for years and years and years.

hehe some of them u understand true.

freedom of speech is important . but saying Atatürk gay !! is it freedom !!
it is some thing like neighbour hoods spoied kids shouting .

for muhamet my ideas are a little more offensive ;) at the and he was a arab !
he cant be ( bigger than any thing ) i count fýnd the sign in the key board. :lol:

Turkish pilot run to Usa and become a ortodox !!. :doubt: and Usa keep him !!! and we dont want him back !!! he must be very important so usa keeps him. may be he will give secret f 4 plans to usa . :P

We respect Mustafa Kemal because he was a leader not a king or a fancy emperor. All his life he fought in difrent battle fields . Change the eastern looking old sick ottoman epericy to a young new country .

He followers may be doing right may be wrong things but his path is the only right path for me!!!

And adopting yes we mostly adopt the bad habits . but thats what we see from west !!

i wish u could read the turkish history and could see our history , how many times we been abonded or trated by the foreignors (how may times).
we stupidly thrusted them....

agean problem as i know evey body has 6 mile air space and Greece wants to increase to 12 mile correct ??

so ??

what will hapen even the small island st kastellon 2 miles to turkey will have air space 12 mile 10 miles inside Turkey.

Also turkey will have 12 miles so what will hapen so island is our s??it becomes very coplicated.

becasueof this problem from istanbul to antalya we even dont have local feries because we dont have sea to travel...

i never follow any fraction or any idea but kemalizm islamiz kapitalizm sosiazim
but basicly i say Mustafa Kemal )))))) :thumbsup:
Kaan

I am not like the other Greeks on some of these forums. I do not talk from the armchair. I do not know what these Greeks are doing, spending too much time watching football, going to football games, herding goats, whatever. You can learn from history and progress by reading it and looking things up. Or you can just assume and drag yourself blind through the present. They need to get serious get to a library/bookstore and read the warnings of Vryonis, Demeterious Psathas, Vahakan Dadrian, Neoklis Sarris, Semeon Soltarides, Bat Ye'or, Walid Phares, Ibn Warraq and stop to assume.

This is a documentary done by the renowned American PBS on the Armenian Genocide. From the 47-48 min. mark they interview, Ragib(Ragip) Zarakolu, a courageous Turkish publisher. He was threatened and in 1994 his publishing house was deveastated by a severe bomb attack, causing the loss of their archives. His wife was sentenced to a 2 year jail term. All this is what they got for simply publishing books in Turkey on the Armenian genocide and on human rights. This is what they got for their efforts: death threats, economic ruin, calumnies against their personages, etc.

Further in regards to the Istanbul pogrom, Aziz Nesin was according to Vyronis one of the best Turkish eyewitness's of the event, he also published a book account of the events. He was a Turkish dissident crticizing Islam translating the Satanic Verses to Turkish and a rumoured communist. The other even better Turkish written account was by this Turkish communist physician whose name escapes me.

The common theme is that all these people unlike most Turks have escaped the orbit of the mystical religious Turkish state and they reject such a conception. So it is possible for them to admit things most Turks do not and move on. The shocking Turk who actually broke rank on f-16.net to defend Greece from Turkey's present form of permament warfare against Greece, in the Aegean with airspace violation was much the same, a Kemalist non-believer. Likewise in that forum they had to censor someone who tried to publicize his address and name.

Some German philosophers who I have read used to live in Germany. But when Nazism came to vogue in Germany, Herbert Marcuse and Wilhelm Reich moved to the USA and denounced Nazism and the present German regime. Today they are not in the minority, most Germans from Germany are against Nazism. With the Turks such progress is not possible. Without regard to facts I feel like I know more how most Turks think vs. how Greeks or Americans think. All because I read that PDF about Nutuk I cited. With Turks things are so simple. Whatever you discuss it does not matter the facts of the matter you know what they will say generally just not how they will say it. They will try to exonerate, exculpate, embellish Turkish history and the Turkish state, its policies, its actions, any fact be damned. Other nations are not like that, when you ask an American something about history you cannot just assume with high accuracy what he will say. This is because with Islam from the time of Muhammed, the state, the military, the criminal code was/were one indivisible whole, it was never just a mere personal religion. With Kemalism it is much the same but it is more about expanding/defending "Turkishness" than Islam. So instead of being able to criticize in Turkey, like how the Western Christian tradition allows criticism and free speech, you get called traitor, you cross the line of the mythical unitary military-state-religion-courts, and life becomes very difficult.

Western Christian tradition allows criticism and free speech! ;)

Yes. :doubt:
do u realy belive this?

when the gremans were making jews soap ! did the christian leader pope stoped them !! or any thing to stop them !! at least said stop !!!
or stop lets think about it !!!

during the europes history england french wars ( 100 year war) any body talk !!

protestant katolik wars any body think !!

Crusides to east . Even destroying of Constantinapolis in 13 th century .
cities population was 500 000 and degrased to 50 000 in 20 years . 450 000 east romans ( greeks become slaves to west) .that time city had more than 50 mosques and muslims could easly enter the city trade their goods and prey . this was the main reason for invasion of Constantinapolis for the chrusiders. when their pockets were full all returned back to europe their quest was over . and forget to go to jerusalem !! :huh: why ???

Christian way of discusing was sword. not words.

Today most countries have their problems. we to . you too.

second thing . i agree with u to read about history ..
even i m in the centre of it and enjoy visiting them the resources are so limited u cant imagine and most of them are sided. greek side or ottoman side so to take out the reality needs time ...

stay well.
Kaan

Since I notice that Turks have a cute habit to become world history experts, most modern Germans do not deny the Holocaust. It is illegal to even deny the Holocaust in Germany since instead of putting Ataturk before free speech they put human life and the historical memory of what was done to the Jewish people, before the freedom of speech to make calumnies against the Jews. Contrary to the Turks who openly lie and assume based on Turkish newspaper info what is and is not known about the Armenian genocide which is easy to prove from the massive compelling evidence of the Ottoman military tribunals, Kazim Karabekir constant bragging of his destroying of Armenians in his memoirs in other sources, Iki Komite written by a former captain of the Ottoman War Office's Intelligence Department who was attached to the Special Organization tasked with exterminating the Armenian population, etc. But then again every Turk who publishes something affirming the Armenian genocide gets into trouble for going against the metaphysical Turkish state and historical unity.

Before you become world history experts and experts of Western values first actually learn them and implement them instead of pretense.

We are not experts in history only readers of it.
and part of it.

English and french masters of the (western)
gave some of the them weapons to hit the Turks from back during the First world war . some had a dream and tried . but un fortunity . it wasnt planed well. killing civilian viligers is easy with new english and french weapons .

but when an organized army comes!!! this dreamers dream finished. so they are exailed.

is it wrong !!

if i would live with u for 400 years and then in a bad time time you try hit you from your back what would u do !

1910 s anatolias population was nearly 11 million . and people say that we killed 1.5 million ermenians or 3 million ! so third of the ottoman empiricy was ermanian! great history creators.

if people look for ermanians they can look to syria where we exiled them.

every body has a Right to try thing but result s cant be as u dream.

if their christian western good fathers didnt let them alone !!!! there were a ermania there . but !!! as normal wheir job finished so left them alone.

im wrong !!
in our Kurtuluþ savaþý. after the world war 1 even we were german alies. we had german weapons ,Ankara goverment had in the begining 3 planes than increased to 7 all french !! western modern christian planes in hands of Us against greeks !( french was whose friend now).
isnt it tratory to u !! or modern world discussion.

Western civilization gives you candy when tv is there , when tv is out they try to steal that candy !

here is a nice modern christian gremen and italian crusider painting very modern.

the modern was bysansiyum before 1250s 4 religion freely could prey and trade.
look at the picture carefully u will see lots of mosgues towers . near churchs.
as to your info with bysansiyum selcuklu raiders fight against crusiders manytimes !! ortodox + muslim agains catolics !!



Kaan

I don't agree that Christian tradition was the basis for the freedom we experience on a large scale in Western nations. I would point the Age of Enlightenment as basis of the fundamental freedoms. The first concept of a convention which should guarantee everyone’s freedom (La Déclaration des Droits de l’Homme et des Citoyens) was drafted during this era.

I agree however that the Western tradition and the larger disciplines within the Christian religion are influenced by the idea that everybody should be free to do and think however he wishes, as long as his actions doesn't constrain other people's freedoms.


Turkey as many other Non-Western countries however still choose to disrespected the freedom of other parties. In this case it's the freedom of speech. In other cases it's the freedom to choose your own religious believes and to be able to teach and be taught in your religious believes (Chalki school) and language (prohibition of Turkish education). And to conclude this post with a even more 'peppered' statement even the freedom to be able to live as non-Turk: the only 'guilt' the victims of the Armenian c.q. Greek c.q. Assyrian genocide shared was that obviously the Turkish state couldn't allow someone to peacefully live as a minority within the Turkish border -and still can't seen the Kurdish oppression-.


Now Pegasus might find the You tube posts silly. Others find it funny. In my opinion the debate shouldn't be focussed on a value-judgement of the You tube posts. The debate should be whether or not the posts on You tube confine other people's freedom. My view is clear on this matter: I believe the decision of the Turkish court shouldn't be applauded. Nobody is hurt by the video-posts. If you do not enjoy, or even want to see these video's, you can very well choose to ignore them. If you feel offended start the discussion. However a censorship is totally out of place and -fortunately in Western countries- out of date.

Just the humble thoughts of an -on many topics- ignorant PINDOS

Kokoro I see you want to discuss the topic whether or not Christianity respects the freedoms of other parties.

If I might suggest opening a new thread? Perhaps the moderators can move this reply on Kokoro to that new thread.

Christianity, as many others religions, as a 'good/bad' view on many matters. However, and I believe this distinguishes moder christinity from the islam, christianity has learned to debate with critics.

Not so long ago a Danish newspaper published 'cartoons' of the profet Muhamed and other aspects of the Islam, whith an underlying critical message.
The reaction of the Muslim world wasn't to debate on the matter and try to convince the critics of their wrong, BUT -and I must emphesize this- by a display of primitive behaviour: eg. burning Danish flags, threatening with fatwa's.

Not so long afterwards Madonna held a the Confessions-tour in which she is 'crusified'. Some christians feld offended. Instead of burning Madonna-dolls and threatening to take her life, the decided to keep a debate wheteher or not Madonna's actions were right.


I am a Christian, but this doesn't mean I can't be critical on misbehaviours of Christianity: eg. the Inquisition and even the passive stance of the Pope on the Holocaus matter (although the archives on this matter are still closed and we really can't make a good judgement on the true nature of the mentioned Pope). Even more this doesn't mean that when you mention these misbehaviours I will get angry. It will rather mean I will start the discussion, not to convince you, but to retrieve the trueth.

On the other side have you ever tried to discuss with a Muslim about the relation of the Prophet and Aisha? When you mention the age of the bride and the age the marriage was consumed, the average Muslim feels attacked and starts preaching about Allah and that he who insults Allah is not more than an animal etc.. Whereas a) Allah isn't insulted, but B) the action of a human being is questioned.

Gr.

PINDOS

I think what Greeks should take away from this that the Turks have a metaphysical and amazing unity between politics, religion, state ideology and opinions on history. A naive Greek may think dialogue and compromise is a way forward, but I am 100 percent convinced that only so called "reasonable Greeks" with no historical knowledge will compromise to a dangerous level and the Turks will just smile in return.

As it pertains to diplomacy, generally I have stopped to follow Greek newspaper articles on Greek-Turkish issues, usually they do not contain acute insight. It usually goes something like this:

Turkey makes latest Aegean airspace violations
it is assured to the Greek public that relevant Greek officials complained to NATO about the Turkish aggression
we are also assured that relevant complaints were made in Brussels

Translation: THE GREEK GOVERNMENT DID NOTHING!!!!!!

You can present the best legal arguments you want and make the most and best complaints, Ankara will respect you even the less for it. What we must do as a nation is not to waste sparce resources, to send with VIP planes I would assume, our representatives to Turkey to negotiate human rights and the international rights and assets of Greece with the Kemalist Muslim proven to be unreasonable civilization. Anyway we can send such officials much cheaper by bus or ferry. With the money saved we can lobby in Washington to get PAX AMERICANA to do things that the metaphysical fanatic Turkish unity cannot accept and will raise a stink over. The Kurdistan regional government of Iraq probably would unlike most governments be willing to allow American air bases that are free from any conditions or pre-conditions on its use, to replace or complement Incirlik, in exchange for increased military assitance to this pro-American faction in Iraq. The samewise Americans as a people have no inherent metaphysical problems with recognizing the Armenian genocide if Greek lobbying is willing to to help such a thing to happen. But Ankara does have such problems and will probably do many stupid things in retaliation that they cannot afford. What matters is not complaints or legal arguments, what matters is what a single superpower that controls more than any other country the global economy, creates military alliances, dispenses military aid, creates and topples government and whole nations. If we take away the tight Washington-Ankara axis the Turks will find it very hard to make any of their calumnies against us in the manner they have hitherto been enjoying to make calumnies against us. For one if Turkey committed the Istanbul pogrom without being a NATO ally, to this day many of their consulate officials would be in a Greek jail where they are belonging rightfully. But instead they have a huge presence in Greek Thrace laughing at us.

We first invented metaphysics as a philosophic construct, it is time to use it against those who do harm against Greece. If Turks want to pretend to live in 2007 but make Nutuk and the Koran their way of life, use it against them where it matters most.

hi,

Western Christian tradition allows criticism and free speech,

today yes in 2007 yes.
300 years ago people was cuting each other because of their thoughts.

Now muslims black time . a kid draws a cartoon and 2000 muslims want to kill him. now our dark era.

Non of the religions say anything bad . at the end all has same source!
but people use it for their way.

now fundamental islamists say Mr mike is bad , he must be dead. and people dont think but only obey to kill him.
just like middle ages of europe 400 years ago.
this woman is a witch lets burn her.

but Ýn the bases dont thrust the religious leaders. i prefer my sences , brain and heart.

freedom of spech is important leads the way to info . and info to knowledge.
and knowledge is used properly u become powerful.

when you tube closed we all was angry here and . it opened 20 hours.

but this freedom doesnt give right for a fool to make insulting things on other people.

just like in the street . i can talk to my friends . but i cant shout at my neighbours father or mother is a gay guy or a hooker. a big problem would ocur.
My freedom finishes when others freedom starts.

Kaan

@ Nikiphoros. I fully agree with your stance that our nation should become more reactive and assertive.

@ kokoro
Good to see you have critical judgement on many topics. Many bloody, primitive events have occured in Europian nations. This is the consensus within Europe. Indeed many have performed researches / held academic debates on these events. On many occasions nations have even apologized for unacceptable behavior. An example is Germany to the victims of the Holocaust.

I do not want to bagatalize the terrible chapters of European history, but fact remains Europeans have learned from the mistakes of the past -at least to some point-. Islamitic countries on the other hand still somehow, somewhy are stuck in a proces of fearing the different / the unknown and instead of trying to walk the path of the learning that of what they fear / do not know, they choose the simple method of silencing the strange neighbour. Either by taking away his voice, or even by taking away his life....

You speak of protests: protesting against censorship of YouTube.

Perhaps protesting against article 301, perhaps even protesting against the murder of Hrant Dink (and the photoshooting of the Turkish policemen with the murdere). Fact remains that protesting is needed in Turkey more than in Western nations, because of the lack of respecting other's freedoms. Allthough protesting remains a start ofcourse...

Indeed i have to say my opnion on this matter...
That Turks in generall have to re- valued there (values)...on many matters.
especially on free speech and freedom of press...(among others)
as some stated above...
anyone can choose to see the video or not... but closing a whole webside because someone made a joke..? Which actually started with videos about Gay Greek Soldiers...etc etc..This is ridicioulos...
I laughed with this fat kiddo who made a self video with hes ugly fat face...and sayed all the time we f***ed you ....are you see greeks...we bla bla..and showed hes room wall full of Ataturks pics... :wall:
For heaven sakes...How ridicioulos is that?
In a platform like You tube ...to make a issue abouted???

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AXtd4KX7XfM

fiddle :north:

Lord thank you for the link.

The kid seems a bit under pressure, anybody else noticed it?
Am I the only one who believes the child is taking it all to personally? How old is he 11? Such bad language and these amounts of hate in a child? I was under the impression the 'war on you tube' was fought between nerds in their early twenty's trying to have a thrill. Where are the parents to send this kid outside and play football, instead of glorifying blood spoiled in wars....

HAHHAHAHHAHAHA,,,,

now read..you stupid greek...sory i ment...gayreek..HAHAHHAHAHHAA

The highest intelegent quote in the piza study/// :hammer:

http://www.tekmetokat.org/

gooooooood question...indeed Pindos

also

Pegasus has apoint...watching the latest develpoment in you tube...its getting really down level..seeing some kiddos making there lifes so missarable...

hi,

i think this kid only needs a father with a stick !! ;)
and some PE lessons.

and hrant dink case killing him was a same acully but taking pictures in jail with cops like friend that was the problem.
at the end he was a murder of a human being and cops catch him threat him like friend ( or a big broder.)

censoring u tube is act typical burcratical thing . but funny.
like lawrence of arabia ( the movie)we could watch it till 1995.
time changes and fast
and if we cant catch we are doomed to loose it.
in our history we lived may times. time will show what will hapen in the future.
Kaan

Oh well i think everyone has the right to mock everyone and everything,this is democracy at its best(some will say anarchy :roflmao: ).What should be comented and condemed is the perfect Turkish democracy dear friends and the kiddos doing stupid things.