Do you think a country like Greece should implement a more dialectic approach to some of its neighbors instead of trying to unilaterally respect human rights and international law?

Since most people do not know what dialectics is, it is a method of argument popularized by Plato. In his writings he loved to have characters arguing various points, one would argue one point the other a different one.

Well it would seem just... but by unilateraly following laws and rights, we set a precedent for oursefls. This way, in the event that the matter does get settled in the international arena, our case is aready won...

Already won what in regards to human rights vis a vis Turkey? To have a reduced to 1,000 - 2,500 Greek community in Istanbul that in addition to past persecutions, to this day is presented with extra-legal obstacles for the community to inherit property within their family. Meanwhile in Greece we have a 120,000 plus muslim community that now probably has more respect for the Turkish devlet than Greece, which Turkey can use in the future to prove further how much it ignores human rights and international law with, by using them for further machinations against Greece.

Already won what in regards to international law vis a vis Turkey? To allow them to enter Greek FIR without flight plans since the mid 1960s.

Be real. I do not see Greece winning nothing because the political elite and the Greek populace do not understand simple things. For one that human rights and international law started as ideas in the Christian Western Europe and a country such as Turkey has neither the history, background, nor desire to follow such practices. But they will be more than happy for Greece to be extending unilaterally such courtesies.

reece is not the only country experiencing this. All of europe faces a double standard when it coumes to thier muslim minorities vs. thier rights in muslim countries. Thas why you are seeing polarization of europe with a stronger anti- immigration policy. Things are not going to be accecpted as they were. And we have the precedent to back up any fututre moves we may ever get the balls to make...

Other European countries do not border a nation like Turkey. The Greek political elites keep saying to resolve issues with Turkey under international law. Even if they take an issue to arbitration and win what then? The judges with their black robes come to enforce the decision against the Turkish military?

They need to realize that such thinking is wrong-headed and will bring Greece nowhere. There is no mechanisms of enforcement for international law. If the Greek political leadership does not defend the rights of the Greek nation no one else will. All Turkey is doing is applying muslim concepts of inter-state relations with non-muslim states, muslim concepts of how to treat conquered non-muslim peoples, which of course are non-compatible with modern notions of international law and human rights. But the longer we sit and delude ourselves the more they can get away with it.

Then we are not the bad guys if war breaks out. And show good faith in all our approaches.

Again, we would not be the bad guys, and would likely have much of the world support our terms when it comes to conflict resolution. Not that anyone would help us, but they would be more likely to support/broker our terms based on past precedents.


So then let me ask you, how would you handle the situation? Go for war now and claim what you want? What are the alternitives and how do they compare? Whats the opportunity cost of one road vs. the opportunity cost of the other?

I think you have been reading too many articles and words of the Greek press, Greek politicians and foreign policy thinkers.

"Zhou Enlai for his part had no doubt. He called on us to take the lead in organizing an anti-Soviet coalition. It should stretch from Japan through China, Pakistan, Iran and Turkey to Western Europe. The concept was correct but it could not be implemented through exhortation alone. Nixon and I agreed on the importance of Turkey, Pakistan and Iran -- but the next five years would reveal how little domestic support there was in America for viewing key allies in terms of world balance of power."

Kissinger, Henry. Henry Kissinger: Years of Upheaval. Little, Brown and Company; Boston; p. 55.

This is how one of the Secretaries of State from the State Department, part of the executive branch of the United States government views foreign policy matters(the State Department implements American foreign policy). The foreign policy machinery of most governments do not care about human rights or international law to the extent that they portray, it is more of a matter of them justifying their foreign policy ploys using these noble and high concepts. As Kissinger openly states in his memoirs it is more a concern of "world balance of power".

This is why the Turks have had more diplomatic success and have been able to against all concept of human rights do what they have did to the Greeks of Turkey. Ankara around the time they were done with the pogrom and administrative deportations and violations of their Greek community by the mid 1960s began the tougher task of the systematic violations of Greek airspace that continue as I write. So there is a connection from the dates of Turkey violating human rights the rights of their hapless Greek minority, to the violations of the international rights of the Greek state that could have done something about this but instead the Greek foreign policy machinery does nothing of substance besides watching and then reacting ineffectively.

Moral high ground does not matter. In 2003 Turkey had said a big no to US troop transit. If the Greek government at that time got involved in state lobbying just like the Turkish government does, maybe by now we could have drove a wedge in the Turkish-USA relations that would deny Turkey the good offices of Washington in its systematic violation of all aspect of Hellenism.

So where does it say what your ideal policy approach would be?

I already said my ideal policy approach. I would get Greece involved politically as a state actor in lobbying Washington like Turkey has been doing for a long time now, except to ruin further the once tight Turkey-US relationship. Then when that is done you have alot more room to maneuver policy wise instead of pretending Turkey is your ally just because years ago during the Cold War the USA decided to build a coalition of nations against the Soviet economic/military/political bloc and both Greece and Turkey were a part of NATO receiving such aid.

What the Greek diplomacy is saying now is nothing. There is no mechanism of enforcement for international law. But the United States can and does give military, political, economic aid to further its foreign policy objectives and one of these countries it gives such help to is Turkey and one of these things Turkey uses this for to is to show its total disrespect for Greeks and Greece. Turkey has been condemned by the UN and has resolutions against it for invading Cyprus, no country has ever given Cyprus any serious military, economic or political aid because it is moral or anything.

Morality gets you nowhere in the international community. We must get the Turks to direct more of their "madrassa type nationalism" against the USA and stop nonsense policies of supporting their European Union bid and stop saying to take them to international courts over their Aegean claims. What are a handful of Eurocrats in Brussels and judges gonna do anyway to Turkey?

You can't do this, for many reasons. Some of which are: 1) US want to push Turkey into EU, so they won't hold credible any dirt (factual or not) you might throw on them. 2) The US doesn't give a sh!t about Greece. And soon they won't about Turkey. But they need them for a little bit longer, so they will ignore legal issues and any Greko lobbying against TU. 3) for them to give us foreplay, we have to give them ass. And we (thank goodness) are not willing to do that. IOW support their policies, by thier military hardware, ect... Your best hope to get any leverage on the US is to threaten to kick them out of Souda. THEN you might get something done.


As for the rest of your post, the above still applies. Turkey has something to offer the US: Boarders with "enemy" coutries, routs for petrol, Muslim support, military market, and a regional power. US doesn't give 2 sh!ts about legal and ethic. What can you do for them, and then they will see if they can throw you a bone. Your approach would end up having us give them alot to hope for a little in return, and then get nothing. Wake up mate...

It seems you do not know how the US government works. The State Department has been and still is very pro-Turkish, but they probably have less confidence in Turkey after 2003. But Congress and the Senate are less so. There is a Congressional Caucus on Hellenic Affairs with 122 members, created mostly by the efforts of the Greek American community.

Every major American corporation that is worth anything has lobbyists in Washington to push their interests. Turkey when they purchase US military equipment, asks major US defence firms to help it pass down Armenian genocide resolutions and to pass through aid bills to Turkey, using their lobby assets. Greece as a state actor does not get involved in lobbying in Washington on the level Turkey does. Greece thus wasted alot of the major advantages of purchasing many of its American military systems because it does not get involved as a state actor in lobbying Washington. At the very least Greece can get major defence firms with large contracts from Greece and Turkey to maintain neutrality by not using their lobby assets for either country. Also Turkey hires its own lobbying group and its own Public Relations firms which Greece does not do. Turkey also organizes major American businesses that do trade with Turkey to help out with lobbying assets as well.

So there are lots of things Greece can do like spend more money than Turkey on hiring its lobbying group in Washington to reinforce the efforts of the Greek Americans. Greece can also appeal to Christian opinion in Capitol Hill and get Christian groups to support Greece with their lobbying efforts. It is said that Bush won the Presidental elections thanks to various Christian groups.

In addition to all this Turkey keeps its threatening attitude recently with the oil exploration fiasco in Cyprus. So Turkey is becoming less reliable as an US ally, in addition to still causing regional tensions. They have tensions with Cyprus, Armenia, Greece, the Kurdish regional government of Iraq, etc. Maybe in the Cold War when countering the USSR was the main US global priority the strategic importance card could make the US turn on the cheek on things but the USSR is no more. If Greece should leadership diplomatically it could get Bulgaria, Cyprus, the Kurdish regional government of Iraq, etc. to voice to the United States delegations that they are uncomfortable with the United States abetting of Turkish foreign policy.

Instead of this the Greek government does nothing but say things that will not solve anything.

Look, I'll be the last person to defend our gov practeces. But both ND and PASOK have done some good, and some facked up things. So I fully agree more that a very dynamic and intricate lobbying system needs to be adapted. I am not arguing this. But if this ever to happen, it will only happen when the US can get more benefit from listening to our view, then that of TU. And I can assure you, other than the tiny players in the world, the US has no real ally other than their dog... They scrwed all the other ones they had...


I understand what your saying. But you are seeing the situation through the glasses of logic and purpose. This is the error. The US acts as it pleases, when it pleases. So when ex Greece is lobying for ex what you are suggesting, then TU lobbies against it, the US will side with TU 99.5% of the time. They have to, TU offers more to them than we do.

So regardless of how many "Hellines" we may have in US congress, the rest of the US (and I dare to say over 50% of "Hellines") would act in their best national interest. And that is to screw TU for as long as they can, and if they have time or motivation, they will get to us.

Ex. TU can be a market for ex. 200 F22's. Greece can be for 50 (and probably not). Greece is a good route to get to horn of Africa. TU has direct access to the areas the US want to control. etc, etc...

That is the bottom line...

In Congress if a resolution gets through it gets through. The foreign policy appartus of the US government can try to block bills, but they are less likely to do this kind of favor for Turkey today. There is a checks and balance system of the United State government where each branch can check the powers of the other. In the USA military aid is susceptible to certain conditions, so after Turkey invaded Cyprus the Greek American community woke up from its lethargy and tried to block further military assistance to Turkey. A Greek Cypriot-American bishop spent considerable time in the halls of Congress speaking to every Congressmen he could to persuade them and along with all moral Christian Congressmen succeeded in banning further military aid to Turkey for violating the conditions of military aid given to it. This aid was meant to counter the USSR and not to create Islamic Turkish Pashaliks in Cyprus funded by American Christian tax dollars. This was all done to the dismay of the State Department and President who were against such actions and were trying to tell this same bishop how it was in his interest and Greek interests for Turkey to receive American military aid.

In Iraq the United States is having nothing but trouble EXCEPT in the Kurdish regional government controlled areas. In the movie Inside Iraq all the Iraqi Arabs appeared rather reserved about the US presence in Iraq. But when he went to this Kurdish areas a woman openly walked up to his cameraman to praise Bush and America. So if Greek diplomacy had any sense and service to its nation we would try to help steer America in its policy to opening up a furthered relationship economic, military and strategic relationship with the only stable and highly pro-American area in the new Iraq. So when they exit other areas in Iraq it is likely that American troops will stay there in an area where they do not have to worry about roadside bombs and other attacks. This relationship in the future will surely cause problems for Turkey and maybe deprive them of alot of the kind of American support they once had, Greek diplomacy should see to it that this relationship does cause as much Turkish-USA acrimony as possible as soon as possible. All Congressmen and Senators with a bad taste from 2003, with Greek government lobbying behind them should legislate to give the Kurdish regional government military aid, to keep the only stable area of Iraq stable from all internal and external threats and "friends" wanting to make incursions.

In the past the USSR was a major foreign policy priority, today Iraq is a big priority for Washington and Ankara is creating nothing but problems asking and threatening to make incursions into the only stable areas of Iraq.

I kind of let the topic stray from the point of the thread because Thermopyles asked me to state a better Greek policy. In my mind Greece must do its best to cause acrimony in the Turkish-USA relationship, to create space for a more dialectical approach to human rights vis a vis Turkey and the muslim minority in Greece.

... "Mr. Zorlu told newsmen that the Greek Government must prevent terrorism in Cyprus "if they want peace in the East Mediterranean and if they want continued friendship with Turkey and Britain." ...

from the New York Times Sept. 7, 1955 p. 12 Column 2

So while a pogrom was still going on against Greeks, state sponsored by the Turkish government, the foreign minister of Turkey, Zorlu, dared to attack Greece on its need to tackle "terrorism" and "if we want peace". Further he linked the issue to Cyprus and Britain.

The problem is that in the early Middle Ages based on the Koran and other muslim texts the muslim world codified legally how conquered non-muslim subjects should be treated. To this day this juridical tradition has more weight in how muslim nations like Turkey conduct relations internally and externally than international law and human rights. They only use those words like "inernational law" and "human rights" to cover their actions after the fact. So as long as the Greek state continues to pretend otherwise the Greek nation will just end up big time losers again and again. We need to end the farce by finding a more dialectical approach that other nations can take as an example instead of treating muslims in the West to human rights and every non-muslim in muslim nations to the Pact of Umar.

Recently there has been alot of rumbling from Turkey about the "minority rights" of the Turkish minority.

Turks of Western Thrace still desperate

... "In the minority schools, classes were taught in Turkish and in Greek. We were subject to pressure from the Greek education system, for example, we had to take tests for classes in Greek even though we were taught these classes in Turkish." ...

... "It was impossible for me to have higher education in Greece. After the educational process I had been through, it was beyond me to pass the university entrance exams in Greece. That's why Papandreou (then-PM Andreas Papandreou) instituted a 0.5 percent university quota for the minority in 1997." ...

... "Under the context of article 19 of the Greek citizenship law, local administrators believe Greek citizens of non-Greek descent will not return home once they leave the country. Under the context of this article, 60,000 Turks from Western Thrace have lost their citizenship between 1955 and 1998." ...

During 1955 the pogroms, the muslim minority played a double game. In front of Greeks and in their press they expressed sorrow over the events. But in private every single one of them with a agricultaral loan defaulted. (From the same article : "Most of the Turkish minority make their living from agriculture. About 80 percent engage in farming, especially tobacco.") There is no concrete proof but Speros Vyronis believes the only institution that could get this kind of coordination were the Turkish consulates in Western Thrace, by offering to cover their defaulted loans. But we will never know since these consulates were suppossed to be raided/searched by Greek police for their role in the Istanbul pogrom to obtain evidence but were never were, a perk of them being pretend NATO allies, and thus they to work full time to this day in these consulates heaping calumny upon calumny not just against Greece but also its citiziens.

So it is significant that before 1955 that did not happen.

From what Turkey has done to its Greek community, Hülya Emin's complaints can be filed under whining and more.

Ankara brands Greece's minority package 'insufficient'
"Turkish Foreign Ministry spokesperson Levent Bilman said that the package will soon be given a thorough assessment, however adding that, "The initial news suggests that the package is insufficient in terms of granting West Thrace Turks their minority rights"

""It is notable to see that Greece has begun paying attention to the problems of our minority there after all these years," he added.

"Bilman accused the Greek government of discriminatory tax policies over the assets of Turkish foundations and criticized its refusal to recognize elected muftis of the West Thrace Turkish minority."

What kind of imaginary moral high ground is Levent Bilman cooking up for his nation?

This kind of constant behavior is why if it were up to me I would seriously just pick a number like 10 times more than the current Greek minority of Turkey as a limit, develop a test to determine faithfulness to the Greek state, just deport the rest of the muslim minority and be over with it. Or we could continue to watch as Turks from the highest levels of government to the average man on the street wipe their ass with words like "human rights" within Turkey as regards to their own internal minorities. But when something happens in Germany, Greece, to a Turk abroad they take out from the waste receptacle the shitted words "human rights" and open it up to expand Turkishness abroad. If they use the custom definition of human rights in Turkish(expanding Turkishness abroad) to defame Greece; we just reply that according our numbers we have 10 times more muslims in Greece, than Greek Orthodox reside in Turkey, even though at the signing of Lausanne there were more Greeks in Turkey.