Åê íÝïõ óõæçôÞóåéò ãéá ôá õðïâñý÷éá Type 214 ôïõ Ðïëåìéêïý Íáõôéêïý
20.11.06


Type 214, "ÐÁÐÁÍÉÊÏËÇÓ", © PNZÍÝåò óõæçôÞóåéò ìåôáîý ôïõ åëëçíéêïý äçìïóßïõ êáé ôçò çãåóßáò ôïõ ïìßëïõ ôçò êáôáóêåõÜóôñéáò ôùí õðïâñõ÷ßùí Type 214 «ÐÁÐÁÍÉÊÏËÇÓ» ðñüêåéôáé íá ëÜâïõí ÷þñá ôçí ôñÝ÷ïõóá åâäïìÜäá óôçí ÁèÞíá.


Ç áðüöáóç åëÞöèç êáôÜ ôçí ðñïãñáììáôéóìÝíç äéÞìåñç åðßóêåøç ôïõ Ãåíéêïý ÄéåõèõíôÞ Åîïðëéóìþí ôçò ÅëëÜäïò, Å. ÂáóéëÜêïõ, ï ïðïßïò åß÷å ðñïóêëçèåß áðü ôïí Ãåñìáíü ïìüëïãü ôïõ, Dr. J. Kaempf. Ç åðßóêåøç ðñáãìáôïðïéÞèçêå óôï ðëáßóéï ôçò åíäõíÜìùóçò ôçò åîáéñåôéêÞò óõíåñãáóßáò ìåôáîý ôùí äýï ÷ùñþí óôïí ôïìÝá ôùí áìõíôéêþí åîïðëéóìþí. ÌåôÜ ôç óõíÜíôçóÞ ôïõò, ïé äýï Ãåíéêïß ÄéåõèõíôÝò Åîïðëéóìþí óõìöþíçóáí íá áíáíåþóïõí ôçí éó÷ý ôçò óõìöùíßáò-ðëáéóßïõ áìõíôéêïôå÷íéêÞò óõíåñãáóßáò êáé ôç óýóôáóç ïìÜäáò óõíôïíéóìïý ôùí åîïðëéóôéêþí ðñïãñáììÜôùí. ÊáôÜ ôç äéÜñêåéá ôçò óõíÜíôçóçò, ïé ÄéåõèõíôÝò Åîïðëéóìþí óõæÞôçóáí åîïðëéóôéêÜ èÝìáôá êïéíïý åíäéáöÝñïíôïò. Óôï ðåñéèþñéï ôçò óõíÜíôçóçò ï Ãåñìáíüò Õöõðïõñãüò ¢ìõíáò Dr. Eickenboom åîÝöñáóå ôç âáèéÜ áíçóõ÷ßá ôïõ Ãåñìáíéêïý Õðïõñãåßïõ ¢ìõíáò ãéá ôá ðñïâëÞìáôá áðïäï÷Þò ôïõ åëëçíéêïý ðñïãñÜììáôïò õðïâñõ÷ßùí. Ùò åê ôïýôïõ ïé ÂáóéëÜêïò êáé Kaempf óõìöþíçóáí íá áêïëïõèÞóåé óõíÜíôçóç óôçí ÁèÞíá ôçí åñ÷üìåíç åâäïìÜäá ìåôáîý ôïõ Äéåõèýíïíôïò Óõìâïýëïõ ôçò ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems Dr. Borgschulte êáé ôïõ ¸ëëçíá Ãåíéêïý ÄéåõèõíôÞ Åîïðëéóìþí, ðñïêåéìÝíïõ íá âñåèåß ìßá äßêáéç êáé éóïññïðçìÝíç ëýóç ôï óõíôïìüôåñï äõíáôü.
Åßíáé ðñïöáíÝò üôé ç óõíÜíôçóç áõôÞ áðïôåëåß äåßêôç ôüóï ôùí éó÷õñþí ãåñìáíéêþí ðéÝóåùí üóï êáé ôçò áôåëÝóöïñçò ðñáêôéêÞò ðïõ áêïëïýèçóå ç åëëçíéêÞ ðëåõñÜ. ¼ðùò åßíáé ãíùóôü ìßá çìÝñá ðñéí ôçí åðßóêåøç ôïõ Ãåíéêïý ÄéåõèõíôÞ Åîïðëéóìþí óôç Ãåñìáíßá, ôá äýï ìåãáëýôåñá ãåñìáíéêÜ ðñïãñÜììáôá åîïðëéóìþí, ôï Leopard 2HEL êáé ôï õðïâñý÷éï Type 214 âñÝèçêáí óôï öùò ôçò äçìïóéüôçôáò ëüãù ðñïâëçìÜôùí ôá ïðïßá ðáñïõóéÜóôçêáí êáôÜ ôçí õëïðïßçóç ôïõò. Åßíáé äå åðßóçò ðñïöáíÝò üôé üóïí áöïñÜ ôï ðñþôï (Leopard 2HEL), ôï æÞôçìá áöïñïýóå ðåñéóôáôéêü ðïõ åß÷å óõìâåß ðñï äéìÞíïõ ðåñßðïõ êáé ôï ïðïßï äéáðéóôþèçêå êáôÜ ôç äéÜñêåéá ðñïóõìöùíçìÝíçò äïêéìÞò. Óôç óõíÝ÷åéá áöïý åß÷å åíçìåñùèåß åðéóÞìùò ç óôñáôéùôéêÞ êáé ðïëéôéêÞ çãåóßá ôïõ Õðïõñãåßïõ ÅèíéêÞò ¢ìõíáò, êáé åß÷å áðïöáóéóèåß ï ôñüðïò åðßëõóçò ôïõ, ôï æÞôçìá "êñáôÞèçêå" ìáêñéÜ áðü ôá öþôá ôçò äçìïóéüôçôáò ëüãù ôçò åîáéñåôéêÜ åõáßóèçôçò öýóçò ôïõ.

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php


More problem with german deliveries. On the one hand good for them to tell us and work things out, OTOH, WTF :doubt:

Kinmid, is the U214 problem also "provlepomeno", or is this a real concern?

As with every new design, especially an advanced as the specific submarine, these kind of problems are to be expected in some extend.
However, we don't know anything specific for sure, even though lot's of stuff is being reported. The reason is that we have two very distant approaches to the whole issue. One claiming limited problems that are being resolved, or even already solved 100%, and another claiming significant problems with tremendus implications for the program. So we can't really figure out what is actually going on.

One thing is for sure though...
If this was a serious and not easy to fix problem, as some report it to be (a design and not manifacture issue) then the Greek shipyard currently building the second submarine would immediatelly seize all work, till the German guys in the drawing tables re-design the whole thing.

My personal opinion is that the Greek government either wants to spent some money elsewhere, or already spent them, coming from funds for the program, and wants to avoid payments till it is able to draw funds from the new fiscal year, and in the process present a firm show of face to internal politics and issues taking a political toll on it's momentum.
It is interesting that this is not a singular incident, but coinsides with the delay in receiving the new Mirage-2000-5, and the latest Leopard-2A6HEL issue.
As our ancient ancestors used to say:
"Once is an accident, two times is a mere coinsidence, three times in a row is definatelly a deliberate act".



HAVE FUN !!!

:thumbsup: AND the cancelation of any additional f-16's... Thank you for your insightful commnets, bro.

Let me just add-on the F16 comment, just to show that both ND & PASOK share the same ideology when it comes to arms procurement, especially the US-originating ones.

Some of you may remember the Simitis government position on getting 60+30=90 new fighters. They were playing the 4th generation fighter card, mainly photographing the EF2000. At the end of the day they instead chose an american fighter the F16C/D Blk52+, for 60 units.
Point is they already promised (political promise) to the US to buy 60+30, but instead bought only 60.
So naturally the new ND government had to comply with the previous political promise (unknown what insentive was provided for it), and although declared it's will to buy a 4th gen fighter it ordered an additional number of 30+10=40 F16C/D Blk52+.
At the end of the day they canceled the extra 10, however the additional 10 will most likely be ordered as well, either as part of the upgrade of older F16 in HAF service, or as a separate purchase, and the official excuse will most likely be the replacement of the RF4E for recce with the use of the new recce pod.
Although I wouldn't exactly put my hand on the fire for those last 10.



HAVE FUN !!!

Actually it sort worked out better for HAF simply because we could not afford to acquire 4th Gen fighters at the rate needed to replace our aging fleet of F-1/4 and A-7 jets. Ont he other hand we didn't get the bigger edge over Turkey but you cant deny 90 F-16 Block52+ is defiantly a hard hitting purchase for HAF to counter TAF.

Although circumstancially... yes it actually worked for the best.
But what is the best exactly?
If you think in terms of numbers, then we managed to cover the gap between HAF and TuAF, plus for the time being and near future even accomplishing a significant technological advantage, but...
TuAF already has a decision for a 4th generation fighter, already ordered 30 additional F16, and it has under planning the upgrade of at least half its fleet of older F16 fighters. All these seriously threaten the current balance of power.
Especially when we still haven't been able to submit adequate funding to the 4th generation fighter program, and initiate the selection process, while still not even a word about possible upgrade to our older F16/M2000 fleet.
Taking into account the time-frames for each scenario regarding HAF's future, there is adequate reason for consern.



HAVE FUN !!!

@Kinmid

There is no firm order for the 30xF-16/50+ for the THK till yet.

@mavrogenides

Yes that's true... no order yet.
However it is more than likely that they will acquire them, because they want to counter our SCALP-EG and IRIS-T operational capability, with the SLAM-ER & AIM9X, and maybe to minimize the number of older F16 that will have to be upgraded in total or the capability upgrades made to them in light of the F35.
SLAM-ER was ordered and was to be used from the upgraded F16 of the CCIP program, but with all the delays and uncertainty of it, and with it's operational capability estimated in late 2011 at best, the prospect of TuAF getting 30 new F16Blk50+ capable of using it, and with deliveries agreed to start within 2009, make this decision rather welcomed.
Another possible scenario maybe that TuAF will actually not move towards the CCIP upgrade of it's fleet, so it needs the extra F16 Blk50+ for the SLAM-ER.
Turkey also needs a replacement for it's recce aircraft, which should also be compatible with the latest recce pods & systems, and the new F16 Blk+ can possibly fit into that task as well (the number also suggests in favour of this).
But I am getting carried away here... :doubt:




HAVE FUN !!!

There is some plausibility in what Kinmed says. The order for the additional 30 F-16 Blk 50+ should be confirmed by the end of December under the program Peace Onyx IV. The military seems to be shifting towards a US weapons source again especially after the appointment of new pro-US top generals and friction with EU talks. However there still remains last ditch efforts by the Eurofighter consortium to sell at least 40 Typhoons. Interestingly the idea of acquiring Typhoons is looked upon favorably by the government and the SSM, but not by the military... I don't think the CCIP would get cancelled, and there are some rumours that the entire 213 F-16 fleet may be included.

In what role the new F-16 Blk 50+'s will be used in is also not certain. The configuration of the 30 planes was recently revealed to be 16 D and 14 C models including conformal fuel tanks. One dedicated strike squadron might me created with the D's which as Kinmed suggested may receive the SLAM-ER's. Recce could be a secondary role, however 18 RF-4E's are currently under a modest avionics/structural upgrade that includes new EW suites, and which is expected to extend the aircraft's life another 15 yrs.

Perhaps someone can transfer the above threads to the Air Force section? I know we've kind of gone off topic... :rolleyes:

LOL Indeed! :roflmao:



Maybe we should also :battered: those who helped bring this tread off-topic




:baeh:

@Kinmid
+1