This is the reply to the post of Aor7...like kinmid suggested i opened another thread.

So when immigrants died at the Turkish side (before they reach the greek side) they were sent there by greeks to test the turkish mine fields ?

And do you (mainly D.E.A) have ANY proofs for the idiotic claim that Turkey sent these people into greek fields ? ANY ?

Greece could also have intentions to sent these "guys" back to the mine fields...easy way to get rid of them...no problems with the main targets (Germany, France, GB) and no costs for helping them...proofs ? None but where are the one for D.E.A's stupid claims ?
Why should Turkey do something like that ? It would also hurt our international image...our EU-aspirations etc. and like you wrote did not reduce the fight again illegal immigration.

For the agreement side...Turkey signed the same protocoll and started or declared that it will start the same actions like Greece to remove the mines.

Again how do you explain the fact that these immigrants make the trips with the boats ? Or the attempts to get over two or three barbed wire ? They knew the danger and a minefield is like it seems not more a barrier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6UF61Nxs6k

What can Turkey do then to react? Look at our landborders! DO you want that i post a map ?

Spain with all the EU-funds and all the high-tech did not make it to protect its enclaves in africa or it southern coastline (like Italy) and YOU expect from us with no financial aid and help from our southern neighbours (Iran, Iraq, Syria) to protect more then >2000 Km Borderline ??? And also to fight the PKK ? And other criminals? For Trakya even if it is a small area the organized crime and the geographic situation make it no really easier. And again it is a cost factor.

You are totally right...it is not fairly distributed...but its worse for Turkey not for Greece.

First of all, thanks for making it a new thread Kiziroglu.

My stand is that Turkey tolerates the situation and that its behaviour looks suspicious.

I didn't say that this is a Turkish state authorised action. However, I can't rule this out either and frankly there are many Greeks that believe this might be happening. Especialy before the mine ban treaty, the Turkish side (be it the MOD, the MIT, a local commander etc) had very good motives, both political and military, to do this on purpose.

I said "given the markings and the common knowledge of minefield positions, most issues can't be accidents". It is impossible that the trafficers don't know where the minefields are. It is hard to believe that the trafficers operate in the Turkish side of the heavily militarised zone without the tolerance of the authorities. Whether the authorities are corrupted and get their cut of the bussiness, are not up to the task or have another angenda isn't for me to say, but the result is that these scums are permitted to go on with trafficing.

In regards with your claim about "immigrants [that] died at the Turkish side" I can't find such data. The link I provided mentions nothing about such incidents, especialy in the Edirne province. It just states "Migrants passing through Turkey may become mine casualties in Greek minefields as they attempt to cross the border illegally from Turkey into Greece". I frankly don't mean to say you made it up and would appreciate some info on this.

About your comment that "the organized crime and the geographic situation make it no really easier", are trafficers prosecuted or is organized crime so powerful that it operates with total impunity? Has it been established if local commanders are involved?

For the sake of the discussion I include once more the links for the Landmine Monitor Report 2006 for
Greece and
Turkey

There are some points i want to mention. At first we have still no proofs for that. Maybe some greeks with a negative turkey-view believe it. If Turkish officials could have such intentions the same could be also for the greek side. Both could have reasons but what is more important we have for both no evidence.


In the case with the "humans"-smugglers i want to say that these people do not care if they pilotage these immigrants into mine fields. They got the money further. They treat their "good" with no care....why should they? There are many reports about incidents where smugglers throw them into water (by attempts to reach) EU-european soil.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3098268.stm


They also might get help from corrupt officials but to say that this is state policy is laughable. Again i just can say that the financial restrictions may be a hard handicap.



About the question why only trapped in Greek mine fields
Turkey has deployed less mines on the border then Greece.
You can see from the report you posted that Turkey has

From the 2006 report

I think the number 984313 is antipersonal mines plus anti-vehicle mines. So that the number ~92.0000 is correct for anti-personal mines.

Emplaced mines:
~920,000 - 75,115 - 615,149 - 191,428 - 21,984 = ~16.324 left for Greece

Not to forget that not all were placed on the border to Greece but probably also at the bulgarian one and other maybe at other smaller areas or for other proposes.

If we say that < 5000 thousands were emplaced against former communist bulgaria then Turkey has ~15000 mines less then Greece.
Also the smugglers know about the fields on the turkish side. I can't really think that all of them know about the ones of the Greek side. And i also don't think that they escort the immigrants always to Greek territory.
I just have found this side with some infos. Sadly i can't say on which side they died. Some dates are identical with the ones mentioned about the cases on the greek side.

http://www.noborder.org/dead.php

But if you say that only Greece fights and Turkey why so many can still pass to Italy...or to other states from Greece? I do not think that turkish or smugglers with other nationality can act so easily in Greece without help of greeks...maybe including some Greek officials. The link to "noborder" includes some of such cases where the transit is from Greece to Italy. To blame just the turkish side is easy. If we could get more aid the critics would be reasonable but not with our current circumstances.


This is also interesting:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2024943.stm

You can't possibly imply that because there are less mines in your minefields less or no people die i mean come on you'll have to think of something better..Minefields are designed to kill no matter how many mines they have.
NOw you say you can't protect your huge borderline because you lack the nessecary funds etc well you know it is not the iraqi borders i care its the Turkish ones...And there are very specific human trafficking routes.How is someone supposed to cross a heavily guarded area?Except if your army sleeps all the time or it consists by blind men or finally this whole border trafficking thing is cosy for you because you get to check readiness,minefields etc.Now there were plenty reports from immigrants saying that none told them that they were to cross a minefield or reports saying that the traffickers told the immigrants the minefields are fake.You can ask these reports from TV channels i guess.prop you'll tell me..Well here it's common knowledge that smugglers also serve the military authorities as well...Now when it comes to guarding the waters well...We all know you are allergic to water so why don't you let us guard your waters as well?Why is it sometimes for specific matters that you cant remove your blinders?

First of all thanks for your response to my request to create a new topic for this issue.

On topic...
As I said in my post on the other topic, we can't safely recognize the fact that without actual proof, and/or evidence, beyond any reasonable doudt, then we can't definatelly point a finger on official governments and/or authorities for a deliberate action such as these debated here.

However, let us not forget that Evros region is currently the most militarized location in the entire Europe. About 40000 Greek troops, effectivelly face off with about 100000+ Turkish troops, in the overall area covering a border line of about 200Kms, with both those countries massing their best arsenal and monitoring equipment.
We should't also downgrade the ways and means that the missfortunate or misstreated immigrants will come to bare, in order to get to a better place and built a new life, hoping for a better future. Therefore it is apparent that any of the immigrants wanting to infiltrate into one country would have an enormous task ahead, and would almost certainly have to at least consider crossing from areas that are far away from patrol routes, or are relied on passive means of protection and/or refusal from passage, in order to increase their chances of successfully crossing over the border without being caught.
Having said that, we should also take into account the fact that most human trafficers, actually don't care about the lives of the immigrants they exploit and try to pass over to the other side, plus they care about limiting their own risks of detection, and not being arrested from security or military forces. So they rather dump their load of immigrants in a remote area where a minefield is laid, and no patrols cross regularly, and thus make an easy profit out of the human suffering of the poor immigrants. And on that respect, at some point or level there has to be a cooperation of the trafficers with some elements of the local security or military authorities, as it is the case with corruption in the entire world.

Now, logic and common sense dectate that the main flow of the immigrants is coming from Turkey into Greece, since Turkey is the country sharing borders with states located in a region from where people want to leave (Middle East & the Former Soviet republics), but it is also a country sharing borders with two European countries (one of which is also a member of the EU), and where the people fleeing the before mentioned states want to go either as their primary destination or a forward destination to the rest of Europe).
This means that alot more immigrants are croosing the border illegally from Turkey into Greece, than the other way around.
That actually explains how a heavily militarized, but also mined border area, such as Evros, wil present alot more incidents of immigrants entering Greek minefields, than entering Turkish ones.

The tactic of using illegal immigrants in order to dissorient, and/or collect more information, about troops deployments, minefield layouts, and patrol/security measures and tactics of a neighbouring (and especially military rival) country, is actually included in every field manual of operational procedures conserning military intelligence and psychological operations.
How far a country can or is willing to go on that matter, is part of it's overall foreign policy, military planning, and overall administrative ethics.
It is also more of a rule, rather than an exception, that most countries facing illegal immigration in great numbers, tend to relax their security measures to areas where there is an exit of immigrants, and re-enforce them in areas of entrance. This was the main reason of bilateral, and international agreements between countries (initially inside the EU, then expanded wordwide), for the forwarding of any illegal immigrant arrested, to the country of origin, and so on till he/she returns to the initial country they departed.

However, I personally would never speculate (at least in public, or as part of an open debate), on whether or not the forwarding of illegal immigrants into active minefields is intentional or planned, especially by official governments.
Therefore I will not do so in this topic as well.
Simple said, there is no actual proof, and/or hard evidence available for the general public, in order to make such a speculation.



HAVE FUN !!!

hi,
these fences mine fields they are all physical borders.

if there is bribe and human both can be easily pass.

syria border perfectly protected but iraq iran borders. there are hundreds of small sumugular pasages.
also
for drug trafic some times cops and army catches some huge amounts some times cant !!.
also for greece border.


The small border btween us is the most armed one still every year thousands pass there. for my belief from the both sides is they are not helped they cant pass this easly.

when money comes to business some people who loose honor and core values can go in to these busineess.

Kaan

I don't know how things work in the Turkish side of the border, but in our side, we were supposed to sit back and watch (or even turn the other side) when we saw drug/human trafficing going on. There was a case of a reserve officer beaten and shot, while his jeep and driver were never found, I think it in february. You can be sure that drug dealers did it. Unfortunately our goverment is spineless. With all that army there it would be easy to reduce or even stop drug influx.

Firstly i ignore D.E.A's posts. The theory of superior races died 1945. Maybe you should think about it...its currently 2006.

If we would be sceptically and negative we could say that again Greece officials
are also to blame because of inactivity...maybe with criminal background.
Again no evidence. Also the western coastline and the illegal traffic there could be mentioned to blame Greece and (corrupt) officials.


But i tend to believe that there are other reasons, maybe different regulations of responsibility (Bordercontrol as a task of the Gendarmerie or local police etc. also less funds etc.). I think at the turkish side it is likely to act in that way too and to face the same problems.
Plus the points Kinmid mentioned about "exit-routes" could be also relevant
At all i have to say that kinmids post sums the most points good up.