I am obliged to create this topic for two reasons...
1-The constant flow of missinformation and propaganda initiated the last few days from turkish forumers in several forums.
2-Because eventually it will end up posted here, so this might actually save as the time and effort to respond.


So here it goes...

Yesterday we became witnesses of yet another attempt to discredit Greece.
An attempt orchestrated by the well known Turkish propaganda mechanisms that never miss a chance to promote the real intentions as far as the Greco-Turkish relations are conserned.

The incident we are currently hearing from other sources, and being used for proof from the Turkish side, is a specific incident where Turkish coast guard dennied to allow a near by Greek CG vessel to rescue several dozen stranded illegal immigrants from a wooden boat originating from Turkey, immobilized inside Turkish waters, while the Turkish CG vessels in the area didn't do anything to help. Eventually the immigrants were rescued by the Greek CG vessel when their boat finally drifted into Greek waters, and in due time they were returned to Turkey, as per the specific deal signed from the two countries in 2001.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/balkanhr/message/4154

For those who don't know...
Greece and Turkey have agreed a deal ever since 2000, signed in 2001, which actually provides the means for illegal immigrants captured by each side coming from the other, to actually be returned immediately to the country of departure.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1645079.stm
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...752C1A9679C8B63
http://www.bianet.org/2003/03/21_eng/news5953.htm


There was an immediate flooding of all Turkish forums with the video aired by the Turkish TV, and a relevant phrassal assault on the alleged "Greek coast guard brutality".
Thankfully for Greeks, common logic and actual evidence, managed to prove the manipulation and the real intention of this last episode from the series of Turkish provocations towards Greece.
Unfortunately for truth itself, turkish forumers in several forums keep coming back with their, unsupported by actual fact, perception of reality.


This was the first to be aired Turkish video link:
http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/Modules/HaberVideo...nMulteci(3).wmv

This link seems to be having some problems (at least for me), so here it is from another source originally posted...
http://www.network54.com/Forum/248068/thre...ptured+on+video

and a direct download link I created as well...
http://rapidshare.de/files/34004507/yunani...eci_3_.wmv.html
http://rapidshare.de/files/34062280/yunani...eci_3_.wmv.html

Our friend Saladin posted some more links of a second version:
http://video.showtvnet.com/haber//200906/yunan.wmv
http://www.showtvnet.com/asx/SAloneH...0906/yunan.wmv
http://www.showtvnet.com/haber/playe...0906/yunan.wmv


Let's see how this story goes:


FACTS (according to reality of immigrant incident manipulated)
-----------------------------------------------------------------

The incident we are currently presented as proof from the Turkish side, is actually a specific incident where Turkish coast guard dennied to allow a nearby Greek CG vessel to rescue several stranded illegal immigrants from a wooden boat dead in the water and originating from Turkey.
The boat was obviously stranded inside Turkish territorial waters, while the Turkish CG vessels in the area didn't do anything to help. Eventually those immigrants were rescued by the same Greek CG vessel when their boat finally drifted into Greek waters.

The incident has been officially reported by the Greek authorities.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/balkanhr/message/4154

For those who don't already know...
Greece and Turkey have agreed a deal ever since 2000, signed in 2001, which actually provides the means for illegal immigrants captured by each side coming from the other, to actually be returned immediately to the country of departure.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1645079.stm
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...752C1A9679C8B63
http://www.bianet.org/2003/03/21_eng/news5953.htm


FACTS (according to Turkish video#1)
----------------------------------------

1-Greek coast guard vessel sailing alone in the sea, filmed by air.
2-Same Greek coast guard vessel with it's rafts deployed, filmed by air.
3-Wooden boat full of refugeees dead in the water alone in the sea, filmed by air.
4-Small raft full of refugees wairing life-jackets alone in the sea, filmed by air and sea.
5-Several Turkish vessels sailing at high speed filmed by sea and air.
6-A fast patrol boat of unknown origin sailing at high speed in the distance, filmed by air.
7-Audio recordings of Turkish communications.
8-Random radar screenshot.
9-All these taking place in broad day light.


CONCLUSSION (according to Turkish forumers logic lol)
----------------------------------------------------------

1-The Greek vessel was inside Turkish territorial waters.
2-It unloaded refugees in the raft and towed the boat.
3-It run away after being spotted.


CONCLUSSION (according to common logic)
----------------------------------------------

1-No image of all three vessels in the same frame, not even a distant one (Greek CG vessel, boat, raft), despite the cameras present both on air and sea by the Turkish side.
2-No image of Turkish coast guard vessels approaching the Greek vessel, or in the same frame with it, even a distant one.
3-No image of Greek CG vessel unloading refugees (by the way... did they towed the boat?)
4-No actual proof of the Greek CG vessel being inside the Turkish territorial waters.
5-No actual proof of Greek crew unloading refugees to rafts.
6-No image of the heroic Turkish coast guard crews saving the stranded refugees.
7-No image of those refugees being unloaded on a Turkish port. No interviews of them. NADA!!!


The video#2 doesn't need more analysis than the first version, apart from a single part of it. The second version of the Turkish video, is actually a shorter one of the first, but it also has footage of a Greek coastguard ship towing a small boat. The footage has been videotaped from the sea (obviously onboard another vessel folowing the Greek one), behind and left, almost parallel to the towed boat. In the background we can clearly see a coastline, And at the end of the Greek vessel we can actually see some crew members standing.
This is presented by Turkish propaganda as the proof of the entire story, but nothing couldn't be further away from the truth.
It is obvious that the specific boat being towed is much smaller and of a different type than the one shown in video#1, and in the rest of video#2.
We can also make an obvious comparison by the crew members at the back of the Greek vessel towing it, and by the unfortunate immigrants on the other boat appearing in the rest of video#2 and in video#1.
An obvious question arising from the specific part is, since the turkish ship filming can approach the Greek vessel so close before it actually unloads the immigrants, then how come there is no footage of the Greek vessel doing so?
There are actually more questions to be asked about that, but i let them to the rest of the forumers common logic.
In fact, the specific part is taken from a Greek TV-channel covering another rescue operation in the Aegean, at another time when the immigrants ship is being towed to port. This also explains and answers all questions risen before.
It would be interesting if we actually had a front view of the Greek vessel in that specific frame, so we can make the apparent more evident as well, but unfortunately for us the turkish cameramen seemed to have a very bad day on the specific dates claimed for the "illegalities" performed by the Greek coastguard.


Additional comments:

These actually PROVE, that the ship claimed to have executed the "illegalities", was actually never able to perform them in the dates and time-frame alleged.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/5117426.asp?gid=74

I quote:
"The video images were recorded in July 2004, and again this year in late May, and show Greek coast guard boats coming from the Greek islands of Samos and Lesbos"
"In the latest of the video images shot from a Turkish coast guard helicopter, a Greek vessel approaches Turkish waters from the island of Lesbos early in the morning of May 27, 2006. Stopping about 700 meters off the Ayvalik coastline"

So if we are talking about July 2004, then the video showing a Greek Saar coast guard vessel, is actually irrelevant (and off course proves the manipulation from the Turkish side), since there was only one available back then, and it was stationed in Attika for the Olympics.
It actually became operational a few days before the olympics, when the sea trials ended.
If we are talking about late May 2006, then the video is also irrelevant (and off course proves the manipulation from the Turkish side), since all three available Saar vessels were eventually equiped with a main gun, which isn't the case in the video recorded.

Image of the Saar in question:
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g294/kin...Saar4_GR_11.jpg


(Notice the insignia is the same with both Turkish video versions)
This is actually an UNDISPUTED FACT, which Turkish propaganda can't possibly denny or prove otherwise.
They can rumble all they want about theories and stuff...
This is actually FACT!

Moreover, the Saar in the video obviously has both it's resque rafts on deck.
Some other Rhib fast boats presented are actually used by the DYK, or the Greek equivalent of "Seals", so their presence around the Saar vessel actually corresponds to the sea trials conducted in 2004 just before the Olympics, when both the Coast Guard and the DYK had undertaken a major role in the security of the games.


Finally as a reminder of all the above, and a conclussion...

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/5117426.asp?gid=74

I quote:
"show Greek coast guard boats coming from the Greek islands of Samos and Lesbos leaving groups of Afghani refugees to drift towards Kusadasi and Ayvalik"

Which obviously isn't shown.
We see many things, but none of the kind "alleged".
And I will not comment on the specific size ship abilities to approach at 700m distance from the Turkish coasts undetected, when the distance from Lesvos is actually 10Km at the narrowest point.
I guess most of you have GoogleEarth, so do a distance check.



What really is all this about?
One more deliberate attempt of the Turkish authorities to discredit Greece, when in fact the Turkish coast guard is dishonouring it's own humanitarian responcibilities and mission, by deliberately endangering innocent lives, in order to exploit such incidents for propaganda. The fact that whenever they send a ship or vessel to provoke Greek authorities, they make sure there are half a dozen cameras around to video tape it, makes their intention more clear. And off course this clears-out any delussions about the so called "Greco-Turkish" friendship.
Their objective is obviously to create a negative environment where Greek coast guard vessels will actually hesitate to intervene when international law, and illegal immigration issues arise in the region, or when Greek sovereignty is challenged, by fear of being manipulated in the same manner.




HAVE FUN !!!

:bow: :bow: :headbang: :headbang: :bow: :bow:

hi

we had this news 2 3 days ago and i was going to post it here..

but to be objective the news had some ?? in my mind so i didnt. becasue
as the kinmind said the ship must be there AE 070 normaly island dont have these ones .also said to be in the year 2004 than why now ??

and the island is, yes nearly 9 km to ayvalik and comes 700 meters to here !!

and said to be leaving 7 9 afaganis without padles.??
ok may be they leave them but to retýrn back they must give paddles.

and in the pictures there were no greek ship with the imigrants . it said to be 13 minutes tape!!!.

so for me to be objective.

may be news it true but the footage doesnt proove any thing.
i only see is 2 greek ships .
one ship with 30 refguies.
and turkish fast boats !!
and radio talk but again lots of questions. for my mind.


some times in the news it shows that greek side throws the refrugies from the ground border to Turkey . and some showed their greece given asylum papers. but . Also when Turkish armed forces catch refrugies we give food and post them back as fast as we can to İrak and iran.
and if they are in every days lots of them are caught then paper works start.And they start to stay here .....

Kaan

Kaan

Bollocks! Shitful propaganda all the way 'cause Turkey is worried of the power that Greece will get by the establishment of the European Coastguard, as somebody else very precisely wrote, the early step of the European Navy...
Anyway, kihmid answered, and another one bites the dust!

:hammer: :welcome: :applause: :lol:

Knowledge is to understand
To understand who you are.
If you know not who you are
What's the use of learning?


http://video.showtvnet.com/haber//200906/yunan.wmv
she is hot beauty damn Turkish girl...Ahh what was the headline? propoganda? nationalism? creating a conclusion about issue by valued Greek members?

I hope I will see you in a day to make a friendship environment untill the heaven and hell. swordcross

@Clearday-TRForce

In case you haven't noticed...
I already posted you video#2.
I already commented on the parts showing the Greek vessels, and actually provided evidence to prove the video is actually manufactured.
I really can't tell from your response, if you are either "blind" in the eyes, on in perception or reality, but it really doesn't matter as long as actual evidence and/or fact are currently being presented, and are more than enough for all the rest to make their own mind.

Let me take a few minutes to give you a crash course in leagal affairs and argument.

A person is innocent for a crime acused till proven guilty.
A person can be acused (set aside to be actually proven) of being guilty, if and only if there are specific prerequisites met:
1-Motive.
2-Opportunity.
3-Instrument of commiting the crime.
4-Actual eveidence of the crime being commited.
5-Victim of the crime.
6-If possible actual victim testimony for the crime.
7-Valid witnesses for the crime.

What we really have is:
1-Motive for dumping illegal immigrants in Turkish coast not valid, since the agreement between the two counries makes it possible for them to be leagally and officially deported to Turkey.
2-Opportunity doesn't exist for the official dates, and the new expanded ones alleged for the "crimes", since it's a fact that the specific Greek vessels (when without main gun) wasn't anywhere near the regions "alleged" during 2004, and obviously had a main gun fitted (not seen in the videos) in 2006.
3-Instrument of commiting the "crimes" (Greek vessel) is therefore (by step-2) non-existent to the crime scene during the time the "crime" was "allegedly" commited, and therefore cannot commit the "crimes" alleged.
4-Actual evidence of a crime being commited (set aside the lack of instrument), aren't in the videos either. We see alot, but not the "juice" of the "alleged" illegalities.
5-We see photos and video of the "alleged" victims, but we see none of the actual victims being saved by the Turkish coastguard, and no interview of them afterwards, in order to substanciate the "crime".
6-Only witnesses to the crime, are the narrators in the videos, and none else, all supposed to be from the Turkish side of the story, and off course by any leagal definition, not valid witnesses in the lack of all of the above mentioned.

Conclussions are left for the common logic of the forumers reading this post.


Let me also make a "mathematical" approach to the same issue...

In Mathematics, as well as any "logical approach" of a certain issue, a theory becomes an axiom or a theorem, when it is actually PROVEN, and beyond any possible doudt exclude any other possibilites.
An axiom or theorem, seizes to be an axiom or theorem, when we can come up with even a single case or example where it doesn't apply, or where it is wrong.
In our case, your "propaganda" theories and rhetoric, not only fail to stand as a valid and solid thesis based on fact, but it is completelly overthrown by fact, since the actual means of proof (the Greek vessel appearing in the video), are beyond any doudt impossible to have been at the time and place "alleged".

Conclussions are also left for the common logic of the forumers reading this post.


Feel free to entertain us even more with the irrelevancies and labelling you keep posting...


HAVE FUN !!!

Is this what they teach you in schools and the media daily feed you??? :roflmao: :roflmao: :baeh: :baeh: :welcome:

Ok I watched both the videos. The second video from showtv is more detailed. I ignored the newscasters and just listened to the cockpit recordings to see what really transpired. The following is some of what is said between the coast guard personal that should also give some perspective to the incident.

-The pilot confirms his location as inside Turkish territorial waters. He likewise confirms that the Greek coast guard ship is inside Turkish territorial waters.

-He confirms one rescue boat dropped by the Greek coast gaurd ship (the small speeding boat).

-No response from the Greek coast guard ship after repeated contact attempts including in English.

-The Greek coast guard ship is noted at 200 yards distance from the boat carrying the refugees and is seen turning away and back towards Greek waters. Kinmid, look carefully and you can clearly see on the second video clip at time 2:12 minutes the refugee boat and Greek coast guard ship recorded in the same frame indeed at about 200 yards apart.

My conclusion when omitting the newscasters and just listening to the cockpit voice recordings: The Greek coast guard ship is caught within Turkish territorial waters near a boat with refugees and quickly withdraws the area when the Turkish coast guard helicopter arrives at the scene.

@Efeler

I already addressed the issue you are commenting, and it's crystal clear from the video#2 itself actually...

The video#2 doesn't need more analysis than the first version, apart from a single part of it. The second version of the Turkish video, is actually a shorter one of the first, but it also has footage of a Greek coastguard ship towing a small boat. The one you are commenting on.
The footage has been videotaped from the sea (obviously onboard another vessel folowing the Greek one), behind and left, almost parallel to the towed boat. In the background we can clearly see a coastline, And at the end of the Greek vessel we can actually see some crew members standing.
This is presented by Turkish propaganda as the proof of the entire story, but nothing couldn't be further away from the truth, and it is apparent in the video as well.
It is obvious that the specific boat being towed is a much smaller one and of a different type than the one shown in video#1, and in the rest of video#2.
We can also make an obvious comparison by the crew members at the back of the Greek vessel towing it, and by the unfortunate immigrants on the other boat appearing in the rest of video#2 and in video#1.
An obvious question arising from the specific part is, since the turkish ship filming can approach the Greek vessel so close before it actually unloads the immigrants, then how come there is no footage of the Greek vessel doing so?
There are actually more questions to be asked about that, but i let them to the rest of the forumers common logic.
In fact, the specific part (the close up of the towing) is taken from a Greek TV-channel covering another rescue operation in the Aegean, at another time and when the immigrants ship is being towed to port.
This also explains and answers all questions risen before.
The rescue operation concerned is in fact similar to the one I mentioned in my first post, which has been reported by Greek authorities.
And the deployed raft you are commenting, is actually a fast attack rhib of the DYK (Greek seals), which in no way can be mounted on the specific type of Greek vessel in question (Saar), especially when both videos clearly show it having both it's rafts on deck.
And as I said before, I will not comment on the specific size ship abilities to approach at 700m distance from the Turkish coasts undetected, when the distance from Lesvos is actually 10Km at the narrowest point, espeacially if we put into the equasion the "alleged" towed boat.


But anyway...
It's easy to film ships operating in the Aegean, as well as to add-on edited sound material. What is hard, is to actually prove your case, since the ships and equipment shown correspond to different time periods and operations.
That is the one and only FACT in the "alleged" videos.

Let me remind you the basis of the FACT that this video is fabricated...
Greece has to be thankful that in their attempt to discredit her, the Turkish propaganda mechanisms made everything they could to actually zoom-in to one of our ships designations, so as to prove that it was Greek.
But in reality, what they have accomplished was to undermine their claims and validity of the videos presented.
These actually PROVE, that the ship claimed to have executed the "illegalities", was actually never able to perform them in the dates and time-frame alleged.
As I said before, we throw theories at each other as long as we want, but we can't actually place the "alleged" vommiter of the "alleged crime", to the same place and time of the "alleged crime" and "alleged victim".

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/5117426.asp?gid=74

I quote:
"The video images were recorded in July 2004, and again this year in late May, and show Greek coast guard boats coming from the Greek islands of Samos and Lesbos"
"In the latest of the video images shot from a Turkish coast guard helicopter, a Greek vessel approaches Turkish waters from the island of Lesbos early in the morning of May 27, 2006. Stopping about 700 meters off the Ayvalik coastline"

So if we are talking about July 2004, then the video showing a Greek Saar coast guard vessel, is actually irrelevant (and off course proves the manipulation from the Turkish side), since there was only one available back then, and it was stationed in Attika for the Olympics.
It actually became operational a few days before the olympics, when the sea trials ended.
If we are talking about late May 2006, then the video is also irrelevant (and off course proves the manipulation from the Turkish side), since all three available Saar vessels were eventually equiped with a main gun, which isn't the case in the video recorded.

Image of the Saar in question:
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g294/kin...Saar4_GR_11.jpg





Everything else put aside, just the FACTS about dates and equipment of the Greek vessel in question, are enough to close this case.-




HAVE FUN !!!

Some hellified good posts kinmid :bow: So what, if we were in your space we did it to save lives, not to train or provoke...

@ Kinmid,

No, I wasn't commenting on the towing footage taken from the ground/sea level. If you scan to about minute 2:12 in the showtv video, you will see the same helicopter footage which shows both the Greek Saar and the refugee boat in the same frame and about 200 yards apart. The shot then pans and zooms towards the Saar which clearly shows it turning and changing course at speed AWAY from the refugee boat (note the ship's wake trail).

Perhaps a mix-up here, but the news report on the 2nd video states this event (TCG helicopter vs. GCG Saar) occurred off the coast of Kusadasi between the island of Samos. This island is much closer then 10km to the Turkish coast (perhaps less then 2km at it's nearest). This also explains the presence of the RIB alongside of the Saar, operating not too far from the Greek island, and also explains how easy it is for the Greek ship to cross over and back into Turkish waters.

How do you know that it was always stationed off Attika throughout the Olympics and throughout 2004? Do you have access to naval manifests? Likewise from the Turkish press point of view we are not certain if the dates are correct, and the Hurriyet article reports the above helicopter image was taken in 2006. So at the moment the dates we are presented are not accurate. However, accepting your information that this Saar class was fitted with a forward gun by 2006 is accurate, then we can deduce that this event was probably the 2004 incident.

Again, my conclusion from the video. TCG Helicopter intercepts GCG vessel near a refugee boat. GCG vessel withdraws without assisting the refugee boat. Why?

I would first of all think(if i were a turk) why would Hellas do something like that? Does she need excuses or to show the world that Turkish smuggle immigrants?Nope because there are plenty of examples.I watched the first video depicting only the Greek vessel and then the one with the immigrants which is a very cheap montage...
Secondly now as thinking person...It is not the first time Turks do that everyone having served near the borders everyone knows that Turks try our minefields with immigrants from other countries and also passing them through our waters promising a life of paredise here but what they always give them is a boat which barely keeps afloat sometimes we get to collect bodies...an ofcourse the Turkish officials know NOTHING ABOUT IT!!!
Now as a Turk like kiziroglou who happens to be tottaly blind or just plain idiotik then ITS EVERYNOE| ELSES FAULT AND NOT OF TURKEY!!! EVERYONE IS AGAINST TURKEY BECAUSE SHE HAPPENS TO BE THE MOST BLESSED NATION AND EVERYONE IS ENVY OF IT!!!!!

Give me a break...

@Efeler

There is no mix-up of images in my mind...
There is a mix-up of several edited video frames relating to several individual incidents and locations, in order to present them as single continuous event.
So you shouldn't take for granted that all images and frames correspond to the same footage, since even the official thesis of the Turkish side states it is an edited video presenting images from two different "alleged" incidents.

The towed small boat, is actually the one you mention in the second footage.
I already said it was from another incident like the one I reported in my initial post. Meaning both Greek and Turkish coastguard assets where present at the same location, therefore the video footage that is available. From that point on, to the point of actually prove that this footage was inside Turkish territorial waters, the argument is far-fetched, and the "evidence" non-existent.
We can speculate and theorise about the relative position and/or speed of the Greek vessel (in respect to that limited video-frame) all we want. That doesn't prove anything. But in doing so, shouldn't we also wonder why the presented Greek vessel isn't in front of the small boat? I mean if we are also to believe it actually towed it there in order to leave it? Shouldn't we also wonder for the absence of video footage actually showing the unloading of immigrants?
I have actually served in Samos during my military term, and the distance is about 1800m at the narrowest, but that also means you don't need a ship the size of a Saar, in order to "dump" immigrants to Turkey.
The questions risen are far more in number, and far more in importance, than the biased unsupported by fact conclussions that the Turkish side supports.
The commentary of the video is actually irrelevant, since as I stated before, it can easily be narrated after the video was edited, in order to appear valid.

However, the one and only single solid FACT I presented still remains.
I may not have a ships manifest, but back then almost 35% of Greek military participated in securing the Olympics, as some cases abandoning their primary mission profiles, which was to defend the country as well.
So I really don't think we spared our best Coastguard ship at the time, just to "dump" a dozen immigrants to Turkey coasts, when we can do it leagally by enforcing our bilateral treaty agreement.

The specific ship was the first of three to be built for the Hellenic Coastguard, as part of the overall modernization program funded by/for the Olympics 2004.

http://www.menewsline.com/stories/2003/march/03_12_3.html

http://72.14.221.104/search?q=cache:bcYN6g...r&ct=clnk&cd=32
http://72.14.221.104/search?q=cache:C3ej5r...r&ct=clnk&cd=10

I quote:
"The Greek government has also purchased three Israeli Saar-4 patrol boats at an estimated cost of $100 million. It is the first sale of its kind to the navy of a European-Union country. The boats will be used, in part, to patrol the coastal areas adjacent to the airport".

http://www.marine-marketing.gr/newsclip.php?file=200351.txt

I quote:
"Israel Shipyards readies Olympic patrol vessel
---The Israel Shipyards have unveiled the first coastal guard vessel built for the Greek government to be used to boost security during the upcoming Olympic Games in Athens. This is one of three vessels ordered by Greece from the shipyards as part of an $80 million deal.
Sammy Katsav, chair of the board of directors, said that the shipyards had competed for the tender against many of the leading shipyards in Europe. The vessels are being paid for by the European Common Market. One of the conditions of the tender was that one of the vessels had to be manufactured in Greece in order to provide work for their local shipyards.
The coastal guard vessels are identical to the Israeli Navy's Sa'ar 4 missile boats and will be used to patrol the long southern sea border of Europe, where smuggling and illegal immigration are frequent. A shipyards spokesman said the vessels can also be equipped as regular missile boats.
Rafael, the armament development authority, will provide the sophisticated electronic warfare systems that make it possible to identify targets by day and night and facilitate control of the heavy machine guns and 30 mm. cannons stabilized by gyroscopes and adapted to marine conditions.
The vessels also carry light speedboats used in rescue operations and chases. They can travel a distance of 4,000 nautical miles without re-fueling and have a maximum speed of 33 knots.
Since work was held up by court proceedings on the part of the Italians, who lost the tender, the Israel Shipyards were forced to complete the vessels' construction in about one year. For this purpose, they conscripted 100 workers - in addition to the 350 regular employees - who worked double shifts.
Source: www.haaretz.co.il, Ha'aretz, Israel - 15 Dec 2003"

It was actually a troubled program when it was supposed to be completed by early June 2003, and at the late of June 2004 there was only one completely buit, and without a main gun fiited, instead of all three. Early in July 2004 it was taking part in it's sea trials, and it's training program in order to patrol the Saronikos gulf during the Olympics. It was also presented in a couple of Defense magazines, with full details for the program and the sea trials. It was received officially by the Hellenic Coastguard a week before the Olympics. At that time it didn't had a main gun, which was fitted after all three were received early in 2005.

Anyway...
It doesn't really matter where it was stationed after the Olympics, since for the entire video and Turkish claims, the dates are "late july 2004" and "late may 2006", so in the first as I said it wasn't in Samos, and in the second it had a fiited main gun as the picture shows.
We can argue all day long and for several days, about the minnor details such as the ones you depicted, but the end result always remains the same.
The more we analyze it the more apparent it will become that the video was actually fabricated for propaganda purposes.



HAVE FUN !!!

and D.E.A another post from Kiziroglu the stereotype turkish bad guy...with a quote from an restricted mind...

Yeah...such evil action can only the bloody turks do...
but who cares if you have any proof for that claim ?

Well i say things that are proven over the years...It takes a bad man to send straight forward to a minefield just to check it..Many have done it over the years but none of them was right next to me and on top of them none of them pretended tobe a lamp...

Check what? That the minefileds are active? They already know that because they are clearly marked and disabling them is an operation very easy to notice.

Agreed, there may be a number of accidents, but given the markings and the common knowledge of minefield positions, most issues can't be accidents. Note that the Evros minefields have double fences and, starting 2005, 10Km of barbed wire have been added to that.

Greece signed the Ottawa Mine Ban Treaty treaty in Dec 1997.
Since then, mine removal has been carried out along the northern border with Albania, Yugoslavia and Bulgaria, where an estimated 400,000 mines and unexploded ordnance lay hidden since the Greek Civil War and the Cold War.

Greece ratified the treaty making part of Greek legislation) in Sep 2003, the same day as Turkey did in accordance with an Apr 2001 agreement between the two countries.
By Apr 2006, 40% of antipersonnel mines in the Evros minefields had been cleared.

It is expected that the demining of Evros Greek antipersonnel minefields will be completed between 2011-2014

In the meantime, each person killed in the Greek minefileds makes Greece look bad in the eyes of the international community and possibly makes the comparison to the depressing casualty figures for Turkish minefields less overwhelming.

Look at the Landmine Monitor Report 2006 for
Greece and
Turkey

D.E.A claimed that Turkey (and if so also Greece) INTENTIONALLY sent/allowed illegal immigrants to reach these fields...can you really realize what this claim means? If it were so both countries commit murder...nothing else. But do you really believe that this is real ? I hope not cause the reality is different...

Immigrants from africa and other regions take these risks (sometimes they do not even know about them...maybe we can read warning-marks in english/turkish/greek but not a refugee from nigeria). Look at the boat-people and their ways over the sea in the rusty-ships which are not made for open waters. They know the rish they take on. And there are also the claims of the smugglers and their behavior against these poor people. They know where the mine fields are and what danger they represent but they do not care about the "good" they smuggle...thats the problem. A mine field or barbed wire are not totally a barrier for poor immigrants....i.e. the action in africa where the africans climbed over them to reach the spanish enclaves. The saw them but nevertheless they tried it and many got injured...


For Turkey:
Turkey started the remove of land mines from the turkish-syrian border.

Turkey also has agreed with Greece to remove the mines from the Evros border region.

"D.E.A claimed that Turkey (and if so also Greece) INTENTIONALLY sent/allowed illegal immigrants to reach these fields"

If Turkey intentionally sent or allowed illegal immigrants into the Greek minefields, how does this necessitaet that Greece did the same thing? The path of the immigrants is Turkey -> Greece and never the opposite. Greece has taken all measures possible to mark those minefields, is lifting them at rates exceeding their obligations according to the Ottawa treaty and has no motive into deliberately murdering innocent people. Do you think that Greece would murder innocents to, say, reduce the influx of illegal immigrants? Even if Greece did so, given that this doesn't reduce illegal immigration and hurts our international image, why would Greece keep doing it?

"maybe we can read warning-marks in english/turkish/greek but not a refugee from nigeria"

So the fluorescent signs with the skulls and crossbones every 1/1.5m don't mean anything to them? The 1.70-meter-high double fences (some even have triple ones) and the barbed wire on top and bottom of the fences either?

Besides, there are survivors who state that the human trafficers directed them into the minefields.

Even if in all cases these were accidents or trafficers did it to punish immigrants for not paying or complaining etc, the fat remains that Greece can only react to the problem and not act upon it. The responsibility is not equaly shared as you want to imply.

Sometimes, what "we" know or not, is actually irrelevant, since the only think that counts are facts and actual evidence or proof, beyond reasonable doudt.

I really don't want this topic to develop into a flame-war, especially for an off-topic discussion... such as the minefield situation in Evros region, so I would like to ask everyone willing to debate that specific issue, to create a new topic, in order to do so over there.
I would appreciate the understanding, and I thak all of you in advance for your cooperation in my request.



HAVE FUN !!!

Turkish newspapers wrote this recently on their internet platforms:

http://www.zaman.com/?bl=hotnews&alt=&trh=20060926&hn=36826

Till know i did not found a non-turkish source.



http://www.milliyet.com.tr/2006/09/26/son/sontur34.asp

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/5152587....srid=3428&oid=3

I don't think you'll find one, you can imagine why...

Maybe because it is domestic or just regional flash-news ?
The video-story was also published in both countries so wait.

So you believe that the Greek Coast Guard would rush to give credit to the Turkish false allegations, which kinmid already totaly debunked, by committing a sensational act like this. How very convenient...


I'd like to quote from IHT's coverage of the incident:

PS: I'd like to express my grief over the loss of so many lifes in an attempt at finding a better life.

@kiziroglu

Which Turkish official?
The same filming the "alleged" videos we debated earlier?
Or maybe one of those commenting it, or shall I say narrating it?
Are we now pass the visual "evidence", and into the verbal "proof"?
Something like "a guy who knows a guy who knows, told one of my friends who told my friend and he told me" kind of?
So there is a video, but nowhere in sight yet?
I will actually wait for it... it would be rather interesting.

This whole story is actually a joke, but also a very fine example indeed, of the simplicity, and stupidity, that sometimes is involved in the actual propaganda mechanisms orchestrating such incidents.
It's just another attempt to promote the fainted and proven fabricated last one with the videos, in order to maintain the public opinion momentum.

From your link:
http://www.zaman.com/?bl=hotnews&alt=&trh=20060926&hn=36826

I quote:
"Villagers, who live close to the Turkish Aegean coast city of Izmir, said they were awoken early in the morning by screaming and dogs barking, however, they found the exhausted survivors of the incident just making it to shore".

Which villagers, and from which village?
Tell me something...
Are all Turkish news organizations so amateur in real life, and so bad-lucked, that in such important news they always fail to stand up for the occasion and actually report a descent story?

Do you have a map?
Go and take a look where exactly the coastal city of izmir is located.
Does the Turkish side now say that Greek coastguard vessels are capable of coming up to 700m from turkish coasts, or even penetrating in Izmir region and bay, an area heavily militirized, where a major Turkish Naval base is also located (along with lots of other stuff of equal importance)?
Are we Greeks really that good in naval insertion and stealth operations, that we use our "extraordinairy" capabilities in order to just "dump" immigrants on the front yard of Izmir Naval Station, and the Turkish Marines backyard?
And all that, when we can actually collect them in our border side, put them all together in a line boat ,and ship them right back to Turkey where they came from in the first place (as per our bilateral agreement treaty)?

If you really think it over, you will see that the foundamental basis for Turkish authorities to claim Greek authorities are acting this way is non-existent.
They are claiming a country that doesn't have the momentum to be bold on it's sovereign rights to areas like Imia... or to shoot down fighters violating it's "wrongfully perceived" (as the Turkish side also claims) airspace, or even expand it's territorial waters to 12nm under the threat of a "casus belli", is actually bold enough to penetrate deep inside Turkish territorial waters just to "dump" immigrants!
:blink:
:roflmao:

For cying out loud, this is by far the best joke of a propaganda I have ever seen, and it's getting even better by the continouous attempts to maintain it in the news.


By the way...
Here is a link that reports the major incidents involving immigrants in the Aegean, as they are reported to the EU as well.
Off course some can also say that this is the Greek side of the story, but what the hell... if we are going to compare "sizes" here, then you are free to believe what you want, since the fact IS, that Turkish claims are irrelevant as long as the EU and the rest of the world really knows what is going on.

http://www.migrantsingreece.org/news.asp?c...&chkGR=&categ=3


However, as it is apparent from the last few days debating over the specific issue, one of the secondary objectives of these propaganda actions is actually a success. It is obvious that it already works mirracles in the area of internal consumption and miss-information... to distruct from other internal issues...
or to create momentum for future plans conserning Greco-Turkish relations.



HAVE FUN !!!

Where smoke is there must be fire...and your screaming without ANY comment of me in my posts just by posting links and quoting is for me suspect.

And about the professional acts of the Greeks press we learned a lot when the tragic accident between our fighter aircraft happened.
"Turkish pilot threatened unarmed SAR-team with sidearm"
Two lies in one phrase...that i call propaganda at its best.

About the videos i will remain silent till there is a clear line.

And when someone says there is smoke, then everybody not present and just hearing about it from his friends, go on and call 911 for there is a huge fire raging in the lobby and people are getting burned alive.
:bash:

Let me give you another similar example...
When I smell something dirty in the air, I suspect someone has farted.
And I actually proved that the one doing it is Turkish propaganda machine.
Now maybe you felt the need to actually contibute to that, and I mean the smell, since by all means you haven't contributed to anything else, like let's say "actual fact", or even a "descent argument", based on at least "common logic".

I don't rule out anything though, since obviously your perception of what's real and not, is clearly limited, as well as other things apparently.
If that's you honest approach to this issue, then there is really nothing to debate about, is it?
Not that it ever was actually...
When confronted with actual PROOF, and actual EVIDENCE, and/or actual FACT, all you can reply with is "Where smoke is there must be fire"
And in a case such as this where no "smoke" can be smelled, and no "smoke" can be seen, other than the rumour of a "smoke".

And what about the initial post I made where I said:
"The incident we are currently hearing from other sources, and being used for proof from the Turkish side, is a specific incident where Turkish coast guard dennied to allow a near by Greek CG vessel to rescue several dozen stranded illegal immigrants from a wooden boat originating from Turkey, immobilized inside Turkish waters, while the Turkish CG vessels in the area didn't do anything to help. Eventually the immigrants were rescued by the Greek CG vessel when their boat finally drifted into Greek waters, and in due time they were returned to Turkey, as per the specific deal signed from the two countries in 2001".

And gave a link:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/balkanhr/message/4154

How is that "smoke" for a change, compared to yours?


But anyway...
None is trying to convince you or any other Turk of the reality, whatever you perceive it to be. At least I post all arguments and FACTS, and I let common sense and common logic of the forumers reading it to make a choice.
And remember that it doesn't really matter what you or any Turk thinks about their lame propaganda feeded by their government, since those who actually matter, meaning the international community, actually knows the truth.
So keep posting your "smokes", and I will keep posting my arguments.
Other than that...



HAVE FUN !!!

Stay on subject please...

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :bow: :bow:

Hey at least our press is free and not controlled by the government...And imagine you even have a law for the control of the media and the freedom of press....So all your claims or whatever on press professionalism is just another smoke on the water....Which means not even smoke...let alone fire..

I didn't want to comment on the specific "incident" at Karpathos that Kiziroglu mentioned, not from lack of arguments to a thesis or point presented by him, but because I don't want to let this topic fall into the loopwhole of irrelevancy.
It is already a complex issue, and it doesn't need any more complexity added to it, let alone following other paths that lead away from it.
Another reason is the fact, that if we want to get into the issue of "incidents" such as the one in Karpathos, then we should do so as an independant topic, where it can be addressed as a whole with all other issues corresponding to it.
Meaning addressing issues such as Athens-FIR, International Airspace, 12nm, and International Law & Conduct, all complex in nature and perception.
For the time being I don't feel like creating such a topic myself, but feel free to do so if the rest of you think we should, and I will be happy to participate.



HAVE FUN !!!

D.E.A which one? btw. do you know the article of your constitution about that point ?


kinmid i stay at my point and remain sceptical like Efeler. Till now i did and will not want judge. And about the F-16 crash you can study the comments of your fellow mates...

@Kiziroglu

I am not in the quest of convincing you, or anyone else, about specific FACTS compared to "smoke-related" propaganda.
However, this is a forum for both debate and information, so what I did was address the issue the best way I can, providing the best evidence available to me, and let those roaming the forums decide what they want to believe or not.
That's why I don't want this topic mixed with other issues, so as the "smoke screen" of other issues doesn't blur the clarity of my arguments for this one.

That is why I don't respond into this topic, to your specific comments about the "incident" in Karpathos. If you feel you have to say something about it, then why not create a new topic to address that issue as well?
However, since it was brought up, I am thinking of opening a topic in the next few days (if none other does) to debate that too.

By the way...
I don't comment on other people posts used/commented by others, especially when they are provided as counter-arguments by the others. I either respond directly to the poster, or not respond at all.
If you feel you have to say something specific to those other posters, then do so yourself, but don't mix their own posts with mine, in order to attempt and discredit or counter-argument mine. It's neither polite nor inteligent.



HAVE FUN !!!

The RSF - WORLDWIDE PRESS FREEDOM INDEX 2005 ranked Turkey in the 99th position. Greece was in the 18th position.


The RSF - Turkey / 2006 Annual report states:

For some of the pertinent laws, visit Internationl Journalists' Network and select 'Turkey'.

And of course there is the infamous Article 301 of the new Turkish Penal Code.

The paragraph is not directly against journalism but for the preventing propaganda from media of pro-pkk sides which ALSO operate news-platforms...sadly some nationalist fraction TRY to use this paragraph against others. The most cases were rejected by the courts.


I see this paragraph in a line with article 14 of your constitution:

And about press freedom...i'm curious how your press/state organs would react about a news with the name "Macedonia" instead of FROYM.
If you tried here to censorship the use of that word how it would be in greater public ?


Ps kinmid it is more polite to show whats wrong on your side and then to judge about others so comments about the use of "sources" by your countryman are acceptable in here.

@Kiziroglu

Your "smokescreens" are quite interesting, but getting rather borring...
Jumping from one irrelevant issue to another, in a topic I clearly asked all to focus on it's main issue. Instead you use irrelevant issues in order to diss-associate the entire debate from the main issue at hand.

The topic is actually about propaganda vs reality and common logic.
Not about propaganda.
But since your last post seems to be presented as a paradigm of propaganda, I will comment on it, just to show the absence of common logic (possibly due to the absence of specific knowledge) in your statement, and the actual reality of the matter.
In sort, since I also want to debate the FYROM issue, but on another topic as well as the rest mentioned issues mentioned by you here...
The use of the "Macedonia" as a specific term in to describe FYROM, isn't in any way prohibited or against the law, an none can risk prosecution or any other leagal consequence from using it inside Greece.
So there is really no propaganda and restriction of freedom corresponding to that issue.

There is however a bilateral agreement with FYROM, signed in 1995 and ratified by the UN:
"Document 95-27866
13 September 1995
UNITED NATIONS
Interim Accord between the Hellenic Republic and the FYROM
NEW YORK, 13 September 1995"
http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/95-27866.html
Which makes clear statements about the de-facto situation between the two countries and their relevant responsibilities till the issue is resolved in a more permanent and bilaterally acceptable manner.
So the use of the term "FYROM", is actually the leagal substance accepted by both parties as far as their bilateral relations are conserned, and as far as the UN is conserned, but also as far as the EU is conserned since Greece is an EU member.
It is also Greek law as a result of being a bilateral state agreement, so leagally speaking it's only a matter of "contact" between states, again having nothing to do with any sort of propaganda and restriction of freedom.

Any other nation not binded by the bilateral agreement can call them whatever they like, till the time a final and permanent resolution is achieved.
Off course that doesn't mean we as Greeks will like it, but other than that it is still irrelevant to the point you obviously try to prove.


Having said that...
You can see this is getting out of the mainstream of the issue at hand, and I already said one time too many I don't wish this topic to derail from it's actual context. If you wish to open a new topic about the FYROM or MACEDONIA or VARDAR or whatever, feel free to do so.
I will be more than happy to participate.



HAVE FUN !!!

The fact that no western democracy approves your attitude towards press freedom speaks for itself and so does the fact that any progress in this matter, for the past decade or so, was dictated by EU.

As a sidemark, one thing that always amazes me about Turkish people is that most of them, even those educated and intelligent, never question authority.

Q1: Do you really believe you have freedom of press in Turkey that is on par with the western democracies?

Q2: If not, do you believe that the state does well to restrict the freedom of press in order to provide you with security?

Q3: If yes, how do you respond to "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"?

What is it that you don't like in that article of our constitution?

Do you really believe that there is the same level of censorship in Turkey and Greece? FYI, nobody would be persecuted for that, because some extreme left fractions already do it and nothing happens. On the other hand we have seen what the result is when a journalist questionins the occupation of Cyprus, the Armenian genocide, the Kurdish issues etc etc

And another thing. Anyone in Greece is free to call, say, Venizelos whatever they like. Does this happen with Ataturk in Turkey? And, do me a favour, don't say that nobody actually would ever need the freedom to express a negative opinion about Ataturk because he was infallible, perfect, superior etc

Aor7 i could write again a reply where i could say "it is different", "these are the standarts there", "these were the circumstancs in the past", The "relevant factors" and so on.

At least we would have again no common basis.

article 301 of Turkish Penal Code
And here is an article from the famed wiki

Kiziroglu, it is safe to say that you can't have a real western democracy without freedom of press. The Turkish state may have made considerable steps towards establishing more democratic laws, but there are also recent signs of backstepping (Article 301 of the new Turkish Penal Code) and the question whether these changes have deep roots in your society or just a maneuver to satisfy EU (like the, short-lived, 1876 Kanun-i Esasiye was).

Now, to get back on track, I consider the propaganda incident that this thread discusses as another proof that press in Turkey is not only illiberal but also, in many cases, a mouthpiece for sheer propaganda. Can you prove otherwise?

hi,

now adays job is bussy so i cant check here to much !

so the new imigrants problem 2 one is happened 25 of september

i saw it first at news at night at TGRT chanel which used to be as islamist chanel but now bought by a USA origin firm and new are ended as( YOU have lisened the americas voice).

and the last incident was given report at turkish cost guard.


http://www.sgk.tsk.mil.tr/basin/26%20EYL%2...0/abc%20022.jpg

Pics up there too.

http://www.sgk.tsk.mil.tr/basin/AÇIKLAMA-2006/26.09.2006.htm

basic press relase.

the report is like


they were 40 people

14 palestine
8 morocon
iraqki.....

they passed to island sakiz (( yiros ) i think )and uniformed people captured them . then put to a boat same morning and come to turkish shores near güzel bahce ( nearly 400 500 meters ) and release the tighs and throw them to the sea . only 3 woman is given life jackets. the lost 3 men and the dead 4 men didnt know swiming. so they are drawn. they shout and villigers foun them in the water help them get out. and cost guard rush to the point...

these things mostly hapen is kUsadasý dead morocons come to shore becasue ýsland samos is close and they use that way alot.


for me !!!
this new is given not by other news agensies but at americas voice for 4 5 minutes at tv. normaly news are like 2 minutes or 1 min.

2. may be greeks throw catch them
throw them near Turkey !! but.

i worked as a volinter at search and rescue group for 5 years and joined lots of rescues and dead recovery. the picture there is some thing wrong.

look at the picture 4 dead man and 30 drawnýng people . 4 men cant walk and come there walking . ant the beach no signs of cariying any body !!!. :huh: .
to cary a dead man which is 50 60 70 kg. ypu need a great efort!!!!.
or to make 4 man near liying together u must carry them. !!!!
beach looks very nice !!

well may be they caried and in the morning waves make it look good but.
at the morning sea is flat always!!
this makes lots of ?????* at my mind.

Ýn greece do u have media which gives long bad news about Tukey ??? and do YOU know who knows it ??


Kaan

@KOKORO

I really can't understand what you are trying to say in your post.
Can you elaborate a bit more please?

Anyway...
As far as the picture is conserned, I think we can safely say that in light of the two video "evidence" used in order to actually prove the claims of the "alleged" illegalities by Greek coastgurad vessels, being proven as fabricated...
then anyone can speculate about the latest report, which mainly focuses on photos of unfortunate immigrants like the hundreds others that face similar missfortune while trying to enter Greece from the Aegean.
I already posted a link to a site reporting the various incidents similar to this one, that take place constantly all over the Aegean.
http://www.migrantsingreece.org/news.asp?c...&chkGR=&categ=3
Which actually gives you an idea of how many photos of dead immigrants are already in circulation in both sides of the border.
If you make a rough tour in the reported incidents, you will actually find out that many (either by their own will, or by the smugglers intention) make sure before trying exiting to a shore in a Greek island, that their boat is sunk, so that there is no evidence of the dissembarking that would alarm authorities.
In other cases, smugglers actually dump the immigrants a few meters from the shore and let them swim towards the coast, in order to avoid detection and possible arrest of their boats.
This unfortunate tactic has taken a considerable toll on illegal immigrants.

Now we can play this game for ages, Turks calling Greeks "Elephants" and the Greeks trying to prove they are not, every time a photo like this one surfaces, but is absence of actual evidence and proof, it is also possible that Aliens from Mars did it. And it is common logic that actually makes the best point beyond the non-existent evidence and propaganda we experience lately.
-Why would Greek coastguard infiltrate 700-500m from Turkish coasts, taking a risk of being ambushed or arrested, just to "dump" immigrants?
-Is the Turkish border so unguarded that a 58m long warship can infiltrate at 500m from the coast and unload 50 individuals? Imagine if they were special forces targetting military installations for a pre-emptive strike against Turkey.
-Why would Greek coastguard "dump" illegal immigrants, when it can forward them back to Turkey through the procedures of the bilateral agreement?
-Why would they issue lifejackets, when they don't care about the immigrants?
-Why don't we see the lifejacket insignia that would correspond to Greek ship or Greek manufacturer (I suspect that Turkish propaganda officer will rush to Samos to buy him some after I post this one)?
-Why aren't we shown actual photos and/or video from the rescue efforts of the illegal immigrants "allegedly" dumped, or from the "dumping" itself?


As far as news reports are conserned everyone knows that when a story is reported from a news media agency outside the region originating, it is most likely corresponded by the regions media associates from where it originated, so it is possible that it reflects the official view or thesis of the country initially originating, and not the independant view of the reporter making the report on the ground, let alone give it more value than it actually has on it's actual originating point.
Don't get confused by the above comment. I am referring to "alleged" reports of "possible" incidents, based solely on unreliable and possibly "jeopardized" or "manipulated" witnesses (I actually show only one such witness interview), but no actual proof. In such cases, the reports coming from any news media, either controlled or independant, would actually express the official thesis of the authority in charge, meaning the Turkish officials.

Let me make it a bit more clear...
Meaning if Mr A said something to his mother about his work, and Mr. A also said to a neighbour that he said it to his mother, or his mother says to the neighbour that her son told her. And the neighbour tells his wife. Does that prove Mr. A was telling his mother the truth? What if Mr A has already been proven to be a liar conserning his last two statements to his mother? If the third statement is relevant to the first two, then what validity doeas it carry, in order for other to believe it?



HAVE FUN !!!