It is variously reported that the Cyprus National Guard is recieving the following upgrades:

- the acquisition of 84 PLZ-45 155mm self-propelled howitzers

- the acquisition of 54 AT-14 Kornet-E anti-tank guided weapon systems

- the acquisition of 41 T-80U/UK main battle tanks


Given that the current manpower strength of Cyprus National Guard is 12500 plus around 87500 reserves (35000 first line) (roughly ten light divisions), how will these new acquisitions effect the CURRENT balance of power on the island?

ps. what types of howitzers do the Turkish forces in north cyprus use? Do they still use the old M52 / M55 series self-propelled guns, or have they got Firtina, M-110 and M107?

It is also reported that France and Cyprus have entered into a military alliance.

How do you think this will effect the balance of power on the island?

What benefits will the Cyprus National Guard see? Training? Spare parts? More AMX-30's? More Milans?

What benefits will the French see? Paphos AFB and Limassol, Paphos naval bases?

North Cyprus still operates mostly junk but they have lots of junl to make up for it.

the last 2 you mentioned...will boost the quality differens
41 more MBTs...and the 54 Kornet...are a tremendous upgraed in my opinion

About the tank program 4 countries submitted propositions.

Germany: Leo-1A5 200000€ per unit

France: AMX-30B2 400000€ per unit

Ukraine: T-84 600000€ per unit

Russia: T-80U 1000000€ per unit

Source Defense Matters September06 240 issue

With the cost of Leo-1A5 I think it is best to retire All AMX-30 and Buy 200 vehicles. The cost of maintenance is smaller from AMX-30. Cyprus will have the same tank fleet with Greece. We will share the same training ammo ect. I know Cyprus invested a lot on AMX-30 (upgrades, thermals) but Leo-1A5 is better than AMX-30B2. T-80U is too expensive and with out thermals. Besides it is the first EU and NATO member except France, ever to take part in a Cypriot arms competition after 74.

Wouldn't it be better to invest in modern day armour and not in armour which in a few years will be obsolete?..I mean it might be costy but it will be a long term solution..

It is better. But it would be a good opportunity to make our tank arsenals (Greece-Cyprus) more common. :tank:

Well enough with this common things BS don't you think? I'd better get shot from a firing squad than spilling my blood for the bloody cypriots who don't even recognise the effort we do to relief the BS we did back in the 70s...I think they should buy whatever they want according to their interests...

I go with DEA.

Cyprus HAS to buy the best for HER deffence.
No one said something about not being "common" when Cyprus buyed T-80.
Why now? Because of the "big" chance to buy Leo1A5? :rolleyes:

Why don't Cyprus buy Leo 2 A6 for to have same tank arsenal?İs it too
expensive?Why do Greece buy high tech weapons but Cyprus don't?

"Why don't Cyprus buy Leo 2 A6 for to have same tank arsenal?Ýs it too
expensive?Why do Greece buy high tech weapons but Cyprus don't? "


Massive population diffrence the Cypriots simply cant afford Hight tech tanks what about the other areas of defence wheres the money going to come from???

The Germans didn’t offer Leo-2 to the Cypriot competition for 41 used Tanks.

You all know the order for T-80 is a result of the arms embargo to Cyprus from all NATO members except Greece and France after 1974.

For commonality, it seems logical for Greece and Cyprus to have similar equipment, since they are allies, but conversely, it doesn't really matter either way, except maybe for joint training.

In a time of war, or after a war, Germany will stop supplying Cyprus with spare parts or replacement Leopard-1's, so I don't see any reason to acquire them, despite the price.

However, France has an alliance with Cyprus, so the situation with the AMX-30's is different, and Cyprus is obliged to "reward" France for her political overtures.

I find it hard to understand how the Leopard-1A5 offers a SIGNIFICANT advantage over the upgraded and in-service AMX-30B2 when they are faced with Turkish 50's-era M48A5's (admittedly with updated optics).

Well the Leo-1A5’s FCS comes from EMS-15 of Leo-2. The EMS-18 is the Best FCS installed on 2nd gen Tanks.

The Franco-Cyprus alliance is so not as good as you think. When Greece donated the rest of her AMX-30 to Cyprus, France refused to upgrade them to B2 model and demanded from Cyprus to buy used ones from Her. So only the original 52 are B2 model the rest of the fleet is refurbished only from Greek Army Factories. In the past France denied to give spare parts and arms to Cyprus to satisfy Turkey in hope of winning contracts for her defense industry.

[QUOTE]Well enough with this common things BS don't you think? I'd better get shot from a firing squad than spilling my blood for the bloody cypriots who don't even recognise the effort we do to relief the BS we did back in the 70s...I think they should buy whatever they want according to their interests...
I am disappointed of such thinking lett them think what they want but they Greeks too.And in my opinion we must assistence Greeks were ever they are.The Kallas in Afganistan have Greek blood they became Muslims by force in the 20´s of the last century before they believe in the 12 Gods.When the bombing of Afganistan was beginning I thought Greece must get them out and protect them.
We are to less to think they are Cypriots we are Greeks or to diference the Greeks who live in the Homeland with the Greeks who live in other countrys.Who knows how we think if we where in the same position like our brothers and sisters in Cypros.

I too believe that betraying your brothers is treacherous, no matter what the reasons. And remeber that nobody chooses their brothers.

Well this think could trigger another poking our eyes out with our own hands.Alas, it's not their quality as Hellenes we check here it's their attitude towards us despite our sincere efforts to make up for the mistakes of the past..Anyways for me it's what's best for them that they should get.But they should get the best they can afford and not mediocre solutions considering the power of the opposite side of the fence.It's not the north they should worry...

Don't forget you guys acquired the S-300 system free of charge from south Cyprus because of us (Turks). Are they now officially part of Greek armed forces property? Did you guys reimburse the $650million cost (roughly $1000/person living in southern Cyprus)? Just curious because it really was a nice military gift from a population the size of a small city.

Firtina is probably replacing S/P artillery in mainland Turkey first. M-52T, M-44T, M-110A2, M-107 are yes most likely on northern Cyprus. As well, at least 1 battery of WS-1A is very probable. Last estimates were 380 M-48A5T1/T2.

Don't forget the proximity to mainland Turkey and the ability to easily transport material when needed. Thus the numbers and type of equipment on northern Cyprus can fluctuate, even monthly.

Oh well we can afford to send them back anytime along with Vshorad systems can you on the hand afford it's presence there because i remember that we were close to a casus beli...

The deal was that the S-300 are owned by Cyprus and Greece operates them and pays the operating costs.

Well,everyone has the right to express his opinion on this matter even if its kind of extrem.Dear DEA,don't forget that Cypros is the only country besides Greece that is populated in its majority by Hellenes.We are just too few to turn our backs to this fact.

Its us who betrayed them back in 1974 (granted there was a military junta which were taking orders from the USA,who orchestrated the whole incident-tragedy,still it is betrayal).And it was Greece a couple of years ago,who tried to solve (or better get rid of ) the Cypros problem by supporting the infamous Annan plan.Thank God,the Greek Cypriots had better sense than the Greeks (who were supporting it without even having it read!!!) and gave the finger to the UN and the rest of the world who just wanted to close one of the most shameful chapters of modern history.

National matters are the most important for a country.They don't just get solved with a Annan plan or by imposing some trade and economic rules(hence EU).Its all about serious and continuous diplomacy

Well,I guess I could continue for a while on the Cypros matter,but its all have been said before.To get back to the topic,between the 3 mentioned MBTs I would choose the T-80s.But since we are talking about used tanks,there is a lot of used hardware on the international market.Belgium and Holland are selling surplus Leo2 A5s,Germany has Leo2 A4....Its worth to take another look around before deciding which to pick....

cameleon1975. Do you honestly believe, that Netherlands (Belgium has Leo-1A5) and Germany will Sell Leo-2 to Cyprus?

Why not?Don't forget that today the situation is much different than 10 years ago.Cypros today is a full member of the EU.Besides that,Cypros is already operating modern tanks (T-80s),and there is no such thing like a ''ballance'' between 2 forces which must be mantained.The turkish occupaing forces are upgrading periodically their equipment too.They may worry a litlle bit about the turkish reactions,but at the end of the day its the money that counts.If the Cypriots pay the price they are asking for there wont be any problems....

I don’t forget, but they seem to do. I would like to see Leo-2A4 or A6 on Cyprus.

a small correction....we acquired the S-300 from Cyprus first on a "Cyprus owned-operated by us" deal...later on the property of the system passed to the Greek side with Cyprus beeing given compensations,in terms of military equipment acquired by us and transfered to the island....example TOR-M1,Zuzana 155m,Erikson anti-artillery radars....as far as the systems that were leaked to the press are concerned...because we learned our lesson..the hard way


and we didint acquire them because of you(the Turks)....but because of our own inefficiency in dealing with the diplomatic consequences and the pressure of the international factor...as i noted above the lesson was learned.....as you have noticed ,news of the new systems leak only after they are operational and in place...take the Mi-35 for instance..and other usefull gadgets

Leo-2 would just increase increase the number of different tanks in Cyprus (T-80U/UK, AMX-30 and AMX-30B2 and the M48A5 of ELDYK). Besides, it is quite improbable that they would be offered for purchase by Cyprus any time soon.

The T-80/T-84 is a more logical decision.

Aor7 the competition for 41 used tanks takes place because Greece mast withdraws the M-48A5Molf from the island. The reason is well known. The strong reactions of USA in the form of denying to give Germany the appropriate licenses to export M-109A3GA1 and M-548Scorpion to Greece. :ar15:

I know that as I know that some European countries are rather hostile towards Cyprus or not willing to risk arms sales to Turkey. The story of the helicopter component that was detained in the UK is indicative (the Switzerland based contractor send it for repair in their UK facilities ,without Cyprus knowing that, and the component was detained there).

Cyprus must take such factors into account and that means that few western countries (maybe only France) are viable candidates at the moment.

Anyway, the commonality factor would be important if the M-48s would be replaced with Leos (-1 or -2) for ELDYK, but given that Germany has greater economic interests in Turkey (and not limited to the defence sector), don't think that this would be easy.

(pasted from the inventory on this site):

Greece
-Pzh 2000(155mm):24
-M109A5:12
-M109A3GE A1:50
-M109A1B/A2(155mm):133

Cyprus
Zusana(155mm):12
Plus a possible
84 PLZ-45 155mm

I think you are missing the point by talking about the tanks. If Cyprus purchases the 84 PLZ-45 155mm, only if Turkey completes the Firtina program with the desired number of 300 SPHs, will they begin to even approach the number of ordance the Hellenic forces can lay down with their self propelled artillery guns. If only the 96 M109A3GE A1 opportunity was not wasted then Turkish artillery procurement would be in an impossible to fill gap.

My sources (Hellenic Defence & Security" magazine / "Hellenic Defence Review 2006-2007" special issue) give these figures about Cyprus:

Main battle tanks
--------------------
27 T-80U (125mm)
14 T-80UK (125mm)
52 AMX-30B2 (105mm)
61 AMX-30G (105mm)

Infantry fighting fehicles
--------------------
43 BMP-3
124 EE-9 Cascavel

Armoured personnel Carriers
--------------------
52 LEONIDAS II
16 LEONIDAS I
81 VAB VTT (27 w. 81mm mortar, 18 w. 120mm mortar)
27 VAB VCI
18 VAB VCAC (w. HOT-2)
27 EE-3 Jaracara (15 w. MILAN)

Self-propelled artillery
--------------------
12 Zuzana 2000G (155mm)
12 Mk3F (155mm)
8 M110A2 (203mm)
12 M107 (175mm)

Field artillery
--------------------
12 TR-F1 (155mm)
12 M114 (155mm)
72 M56 (105mm)
20 M-1944 (100mm)

Multiple-launch rocket systems
--------------------
4 BM-21 Grad (40x122mm)
24 M-63 Plamen (32x128mm)

SHORADS anti-aircraft missiles
--------------------
6 Tor-M1
12 Skyguard (x2x4 Aspide)

MANPADS anti-aircraft missiles
--------------------
12 Atlas (x2 Mistral)
18 Mistral
>100 9K32M Strela-2M

Anti-aircraft guns
--------------------
24 GDF-005 (2x35mm)
50 M-55 (3x20mm)

Guided anti-tank missiles
--------------------
45 MILAN

Unguided anti-tank missiles
--------------------
~1000 APILAS (112mm)
~1000 RPG-7V (85mm)
? M72A2LAW (66mm)

Recoilless rifles
--------------------
144 M40A1 (106mm)

Mortars
--------------------
114 MO-120RT61 (120mm)
26 M2/M60 (107mm)
180 E-44 (81mm)
~40 M19 (60mm)


ELDYKK also has

82 M48A5 MOLF (105mm)
99 LEONIDAS II


The PLZ45 programm was canceled in early 2006.
Indeed the requirement was for 84 pieces but the numbers orderd were not known (only that the Norinco order was valued at 47.3mil Cyprus Pounds)

Quite possibly another 6 Zuzana 2000G will be acquired.

You are right that the artillery needs reinforcement.

Cyprus (GEEF) evaluated the MBTs as their first priority and artillery as their second.
The main reason is the estimation that at least one Company of M-60 Sabra MkIII Turkish tanks may arrive in the occupied territories.
This is also the reason why Cyprus is considering the purchase of Kornet-E anti-tank missiles.

Hi,

in a small land scape tank isnt a solution .

during the cyprus war as the memories of the soldiers tanks were the most easy target s ( old russian ones ) and they easly get destroyed. The resistance force s in small groups opened fire and run away made the main hurt to us. other wise old equipments easly destroyed against modern technologies.

some russian equipment s are quite impresive but todays western arsenal they have no chance !!.

from the cyprus war we got lots of pics 2 or 3 cypriots tanks ( t 34 ) burned or abonded.

and this arsenal that i read is quite alot for north cyprus ! but very little for Turkey !
inspite of tanks ,anti tank systems would be a better solition. New rpgs , milans , tows . ( dont buy eryx french shit) we did and was a huge mistake ! <_<
also french equipment we only use their helicopters but only because of frence to help us in EU enterence. thats all. no body likes this stupid choper.

balck hawks can fly even they are hit like 100 150 times with ak 47 or other field guns . but if a couger is hit 10 shots pilots take it to bases becase of lack of thrust.!!!!!!!

dont thrust french equipment !!

does also south cyprus has ambargo on her too?? Ý only think that north has it??

Kaan

The info you give for S-70 and AS-532 is very interesting. I remember the outcome of the first competition for new army helicopters between S-70, AS-532, and Mi-171. The winner was S-70. But the government canceled the competition. :sneaky:

[QUOTE]some russian equipment s are quite impresive but todays western arsenal they have no chance !!. [/QUOTE]

Yes but the best you have in Cyprus are M-48! So no much chance against T-80. ;)

[QUOTE]and this arsenal that i read is quite alot for north cyprus ! but very little for Turkey ! [/QUOTE]

Yes but you can't bring all of it n Cyprus! B)

[QUOTE]inspite of tanks ,anti tank systems would be a better solition. New rpgs , milans , tows . ( dont buy eryx french shit) we did and was a huge mistake ! [/QUOTE]
You know that Milan is French right?

[QUOTE]balck hawks can fly even they are hit like 100 150 times with ak 47 or other field guns . but if a couger is hit 10 shots pilots take it to bases becase of lack of thrust.!!!!!!!

It dependy WHERE the helli is hit! And i realy doubt that even a blackhawk can survive 100-150 hits!

[QUOTE]dont thrust french equipment !![/QUOTE]
We never had problems with them!
:applause:

modernized m 48 s ! with new enginess and optical advantages.
agaisnt russian equipment ! well choose one.


we dont have to bring all few would be enougf. ;)

milan is the only good thing and french can only sell abroad.

other wise nobody nowadays buy french equipment.
only one or two chopers to araps turks and greeks .

now no rafael is sold abroad or new mirages.??? or euro fighther??

do u know who orders euro fighter ???

and espicialy lerec tank....

look s fast nice
and in the test in turkey count past the mud pool where the m 60 s leopards easly pass. it stuck there!! :lol:

and i would use the equipments of a country who is invaded by its neighbour every 40 years in 20 days. :thumbsup:


black hawks has lots of stories that saves lots of lives in south east.

one of them where in high altitudes..
all dors are sealed and closed beacuse of presure. it efects the pilots alot.

because from 1000 meter to u fly to 3000 3500 4000 meters . pilots get dizy so like plane u presurize and give oxigen in the choper.

So one of teh black hawks got hit lots of times and had to land near base army base . and the pilot put oranges and figs to the rýfle shot holes.
:)

but never a story like this to a cougar.



did u use french equipment in real war(not 2 days exercises) ? :doubt:

Kaan

moderinsed??lol....we are talking about Korea war era tanks....the most modern tank is the T2 standard...they dont stand 1 chance in a million against T-80s in the right numbers...the army leadership knows that so it tries to keep the numerical advantage by boosting their numbers...

i cant make out one single phrase from the rest mate...what are you mumbling about??

The Turkish tanks have only one advantage over the Cypriot ones besides the numbers. They all have night vision sights. But that’s for know, because in the near future all Cypriot Tanks will have night vision sights. :mgun:

Old gun, old armour. T-80 had modern gun, modern armour and guided weapons!

Mirage2000 is one of the most saled fighters! India, Taiwan, Katar, Egypt, Peru.
Puma is in Spain, UK, Netherland, Pakistan Rumania etc.
AMX-30 at his days. Spain, Katar, Venezuele, Chile.
Should we talk about Exocet missile?
France is one of the biggest weapon exporters in the world!

:damn: Eurofighter is NOT French!

Whats your point?
Even the Germans used French equipment after the invasion of France!
German lost WW2. Are Leopard worthles? :hammer:

Huh?I didn't knew that!Why on earth did Cypros buy them without night vision? :blink:

That system are they going to install?I hope it will be an European system....

sorry

i wount use the equipments of a country who is invaded in 20 25 days every 40 years.

i mean i wouldnt use french equipment ;)

i would definetly use german Leo . tank is germans business :)
sorry job conditions nowadays i have few time to read and write.


yes cougarand puma is used by 20 countries. but look at the numbers 1 or 2 or maximum 4 ?? and most of them as camo VÝP chopers for general stuff.

and countries like peru romania chile can use it( unfortunatly Turkey too ) . because they cant buy black hawk . we bougth them just to make french happy on the way to EU membership and every body in the army was against it. navy bougt sea hawks . And now air force has to change the old UH1 s to some thing but what cougar or black hawk ?? Ý dont know the result !!

Euro fihter isnt french . But most parts are french ( of course its name is euro figher ) but any body give any order from it ????? even french or germany or italy ???

they built it they dont even thrust it???


and who would thrust it???? agaist f 22 ???

French can only sell its equipments to who cant aford to buy Usa equipments.
in falkland war i think the french equipment using side lost ??

Turkey and Greece we are not countries like chilie or qatar or nabýbya !

we dont buy things like 4 puma or cougar .
we buy like 240 blackhawks or 340 f 16 s
Greece buy like these numbers. and using low tech equipments wont help any body!

look Ýraq they had every thing from every where!!!

mig 25s , russian t models french f 1s . .........

what hapenned ???
even a small wictory ? even a one t tank hitting a M1 ??

or a mig or a f1 shoting a F16 or a A10 .

iraq had a strong air defence system from france and russia!!! :(

we see it alive on tv.

And Amx tanks may be good for peace operations in africa agains canibals who has bows and arrows ans some Ak 47. but against a army which has main battle tanks!!!! i think they dont have a chance .


exotects iraq has them as i remember ! did they hit any thing?

and i remeber adragon1w4e5s said our old thanks mostly modernized by us and germans like Greece does.

just the same. engines are good sights are good.

only armour is old. that is the problem. <_<

as a result i woulndt buy french !! equipment.

Well dear kokoro i'll have to remind you that the French Reanault tanks at the begining of the war were top of their class.Even the Germans used them.France lost the war in the begining because her hole strategy was based on wrong doctrines.In the position of France it could very well be UK,USA or any other country of the world..In the begining of the war tactics were the ones that mattered the most.In the Falkland war there were 4 super etendards if i 'm not mistaken and 4 exocets from which the 2 hit the Invincible & another vessel whose name i can't remember.Both were barely afloat..Exocet A/s misile is considered to be among the best nad if not mistaken better than harpoon.In iraq the AA umbrella was based uppon the Russian system but there were far too many types of AAs..You can't expect AAs to neutralize something like 2000 planes and survive from tomahawks,long range artilery etc etc etc. Now why does everyone tend to make F22 super plane?For me it's super crap because the only way it can engage targets is from long range,if it manuever too much it is visible,if it open it's bays it is visible and of course you can't possibly imagine an air superiority plane carrying only 4 missiles?...Because if it carry weapons under wings then so much for stealth..
If the Ussr planes were worthless they wouldn't be dreaded by their opponents..And never forget that it's the person using the system that proves the system and not the other way round.