Something I was thinking about and I want to share with you guys.....

I heard the Lebanese prime minister call the Heznuts 'resistance fighters". Well, that's an insult to people like my father. My father was a resistance fighter in WWII against the Nazis and let me tell you one thing, he would rather commit suidcide then bring harm to his civilians. In fact, EVERY battle and every action was taken FAR away rom the town in order not to place the towns people in danger of retaliation. Every resistance fighter would rather die then give up who he was fighting with and where he came from.

So you have my father who fought with honour along with THOUSANDS like him in WW11 and you have the Heznuts who hide behind children and welcome their deaths. "Martyrs by murderers" they scream and cry AFTER they goad the enemy to fire upon them. Think about this, the Heznuts were PROUD that only two of them died while they brought death to 600 others. Heznuts are not resistance fighters, they are cowards.

I ask this, who amongst you, Greeks and Turks on this forum, would use civilians as shields? Who amongst you would hide their weapons in peoples homes? Or fire from populated areas knowing that the enemy will fire back and cause civilian deaths?

I don't entirely disagree with you on main point, but your comparison is not quite accurate.

In WW2 the actions of resistance against the Germans always generated reprisals against civilians. Should we place the blame for the depraved collective punishment exacted on civilians on the resistance or on those that committed the actual crime?

In Lebabon the majority of the civilian deaths have been recorded far away from the battlefields in the South, where actual Hezb operations are in progress. What is leveling entire sections of a city, if not barbaric collective punishment? It is not as if combat operations are taking place in that city (this is not Stalingrad).

Do a quick comparison in the casualty list from either side. Which side has inflicted losses primarily on military targets, and which one on civilians? Using such weak pretenses as operating "close" to civilians is a pathetic excuse, as is using "human shield" propaganda.

Fighting in an urban setting and using proper concealment techniques is not something to look down on. In fact, it is training that is provided to the most elite forces of the most advanced armies in the world.

+1


Re digeni aytos o fifnikas me vazei se skepseis...Toso poly sou aresei ayto to mitihko on?

In case there is any doubt by anyone, my avatar is the "PC" version of the below honored emblem:


I won't go into the details about why I am using the avatar that I am (at least not in this thread). My true identity and political beliefs are well known, and easily available to anyone interested.

+1 Digenis

And I will add:

Israeli military casualties: 33+
Civi casualties: 19


Lebanon military: 18
(which WAS neutral)
Hezballah: ~125
Lebanise civi: 600+

And as you said, all the action is in the south... So those numbers show who the real cowards are. If they know where Hezballah are so well, why dont the go and get them with men? Then they can be sure of their targets...

And I'll also add that this is not a fair fight. this is a featherweight fighting a light heavyweight. So the Hez have to fight within parametres that will try to equalize the disadvantage somewhat. Urban areas are perfect for this. The civis have been trying to leave for weeks, but there are no roads, no transport, no bridges, no phones, no electrical, no refugee camps. Where and how do they expect the civis to go???

And no Spartan, I nor anyone elso on this forum, to my knowledge would purposly use civis for protection. But yes, I would do all the other things you mentioned once the civi's were out.

AND my grandfather and granduncle were also in the resistance, and they got help from the villigers, and yours probably did as well. Of course the local populace will embrace the people fighting for their cause. Does that make the villagers suicidal? does it make the fighters murdurers? Or should they not accept the help of the populace?

It is indeed collective punishment just as the Nazis did. Looks like the Israelis have completed the transformation into the thing they hated most...

There is a world of difference getting help from villagers and hiding behind villages. That is the salient point of the post.

Here are TWO examples that the Heznuts and their ilk WANT civilian deaths.

1. A week ago, there was an interview on CNN with a Hezbollah spokesman. He said that the Israelis can not get to them and they only killed TWO of them while causing the death of 400 (at that time). He was BOASTING about that.

2. In the first days of the foreign insurgency in Iraq, the CBC (Canadian pro Liberal station) had an interview with a "fighter". They asked him why he was running over the roofs of peoples homes and bringing US fire to the residents of this homes. He said in no uncertain terms that "civilian blood fueled anger". "They are martyrs and they will be rewarded by Allah". I had to watch it TWICE to believe it.

Is anyone here going to tell me that civilian deaths are not a welcome propaganda tool by these nut cases? Well then, WATCH Al Jezeera. You will see MORE CAMERAS the Kalashnikov's every time there are civilian killed. In fact, there is ALWAYS a crowd screaming RIGHT ON CUE.

As for the civilians leaving......

Do you guys realize that country is 50 km wide? It takes two hours by BICYCLE to get across the country. Two weeks ago, foreign civilians were able to leave from ALL OVER Lebanon and yet in two weeks, these civilians could not WALK twenty miles? 4 hour walk in TWO weeks? Twenty minutes by car? Traffic jams going 20 kms? I am 52 years old and I can walk across from the Syrian border to the west coast of Lebanon in 8 hours carrying a white flag on my back, twelve chocolate bars, three liters of water and ten condoms (never know the next time I get lucky). And the Shiite civilians could not do this in TWO weeks? Ohh please.......they are much more usefully as propaganda targets.

Nobody in the world really cares about refugees, but dead babies? What a photo op!

Buy the way, did ANYONE watch the videos of rockets fired from behind CIVILIAN BUILDINGS? Who was firing them? Snow White? Santa Claus? Lord, was it you?

I was always critical of Israel but what I see now goes further then Hezbollah rockets. There is FAR more at risk and far more at play then this relatively insignificant border flare-up. That is why the enemy of my enemy is the lesser evil.

Well thats a good point, and had I seen that, it would make me wonder. That is indeed cowardly... Or perhaps just desperate, depending on the view... And while I'm at it, I do want to say that I do agree with some of your thesis, in principal at least.

Granted, but the Israelis are bombing anyone who even SYMPATHIZES or even is employed by them, let alone help them. If they even try to help, they are dead meat, just like the Greeks helping the resistance.


As far as having to walk to safety, no foriegners had to walk to safety, hell they even got to carry baggage. And there are documented cases of people fleeing and getting killed while they try to flee. On many occasions. When that happens, it might make people think twice about trying to leave. Especialy if you have to walk like you said with injured old people and young children... Lets get real... Its possible, but no doubt many would die along the way.

That said, IMHO, it is a true crime that a flourishing country with a new democracy got bombed to the stone age. And again, if the Israelis were not the cowards, they would go in with jeeps and machene guns, not f-16's and merkava's. How are you gooing to fight back against that? Of course Hiz must do something to try to gain some advantage. Its only logical, to some degreee anyways.

Doesn't really take any balls to bomb from the air and artillary when the enemy has no answer to this, does it?

So, cowardlyness is met with desperation, violence with violence, and dis-proportionate actions/reactions/force with fanaticism. That is my salient point...

I will agree with Thermopyles and Digenis (apart from the avatar thing :)) and i will add few things too..

Before the first Iraq war there was a famous interview in CNN that actually shaped the US public opinion against Iraq.. it was the interview of a girl that was describing in tears that Iraqi soldiers entered a hospital and were killing new born babes...
Later on it was proven that the girl was the daughter of the Kuweit embassador in US and that the whole story was fictional...
There was also a famous image of a Cormoral covered in oil to show that Iraq was causing a major environmental disaster in the area.. but Cormorans don't live there and that particular one was from an older oil spil in Alaska...
I could go on for pages with such cases of US propaganda especially on CNN... you live there Spartan.. you know it better than i...

First we can have a very long discussion on why someone should live his house and all his belongings just because Israel desided that will bomb an area.. but appart from that, would you be able to do the same having with you 4-8 kids, some few months or years old, your wife (possibly pregnant), your parents and her parents, and possible other relatives? Arabs do have very lange families and give value to them (same as we Greeks)

Also many tried to move and were bombed.. most of the early victims were civilians on the move.. hell they even bombed ambulances, parked, with their lights on.. bombed them right in the center of the cross...

You believe that Hezbolah uses the people.. well Hezbolah is the people.. they are not just an army.. they have hospitals, schools, they are a political party, they have the most popular TV station in Lebanon, they provide constantly community service, they are loved by the civilians because they help them.. all the time.. and they are the ones that made Israel leave Lebanon in the first place..

I would like also to add something more.. you suggest that Hezbolah uses the people as shields.. i believe (and many analysts) that Israel uses civilian casualties for braking these strong ties that Hezbolah has with Lebanise people and turning them against Hezbolah.. they have done it also many times in the past, it is not the first time that Israel targets civilians.. it's their common practice actually.. and in the past they even used "phsycological operations" against civilians for moving them out of their homes so they advance easier and without resistance in an area (not because they care about civilians, because they knew that they would fight for their homes and they couldn't afford that fight)..

+1

Even in the risk of beeing accused of beeing anti-jew (i am actually, and i don't feel any regret about it) i will point out something else too..
One of the greatest jewish religious ceremonies is the passover.. maybe the greatest.. this ceremony celebrates the killing of the first born kids of the Egyptians by the "Angel"... when a race celebrates such events and they are raised this way it is no surprise that they have no problem beeing baby killers themselves.. it sounds natural actually...

This is total war. And both parties are responsible for this. Terrorism has become such a fucking cliche. When Hezbollah fires rockets in Israel it is a terror campaign. When Isrealis bomb the shit out of Lebanon with no official war declaration, killing hundrends of civilians, UN, Red Cross and a few dozens of Hezbollah fighters (if the figure is accurate, which i doubt) they do it on self-defence. When Russia used artillery in Grozny everyone acted oh-so-fucking-appauled. Now they just look away and talk about the bloody weather.

If Isreal wants to ends this story it should either start a genocide or take a few lessons by the British on counter-insurgency. In Ireland they lost 1000 troops for 300 IRA fighters. Everyone brags about how many more terrorists they killed. Well fuckheads, it's the other way around. You can't win otherise.

*sigh*

Worse still, I know that this is not an isolated view amongst my fellow Greeks.

By the way, have you ever been welcomed at a Passover dinner? I assure you, there were no dead Arab babies on the menu. Nor where there any Jews hanging from the rafters when I was invited by a good friend to a Mosque in Eqypt.

Sadly, there is very little to add after this.

Hi Koursaros, it's been a while since we talked.....

On the surface, this looks like Hez firing rockets and Israel retaliating with excessive force. But it's far, far deeper then that. I think that we can write a book on all the combinations and permutations of what's involved here. Iran and it's goals. Syria and it's goals. Hezbollah and it's goals in Lebanon. Israel and it's goals of breaking the Hez and brining more Western forces into the region. And the list goes on.......


My support of Israel stems from view that the "enemy of my enemy is the lesser evil". Hez even remotly "winning" this would create a firestorm of fundamantalist Arab nationalism that can lead to something that will make this "war"' look like a gang fight. Israel will not go quietly into the sunset. It will scorch the Arab world and I have an easy time of understanding that. If Greece was about to be destroyed, I would have no qualms if they scorced the enemy or enemies from the face of the earth. Even if that does not happen, there will be oil wars breaking out for the next fifty years.

Do you remember my thread at the old "unmentionable" place? Do you remember when I said that the 21st century will be marked by Oil Wars? It will take many coloors and many face, it will look like religion and it will look like clashes of civilization, but it will be about oil.

Sadly, that time is upon us.

Actually i have.. and i was in Jerusalem at that time.. i've been in Israel twice and spent quite some time there working with an Isreali IT company on a joint project with Intracom for a US satelite internet provider..

I actually made some very good friends over there Spartan and i had the oportunity to live with the jews and learn about them from within.. and even if my views about them are not positive i have no problem with them in a personal level..

What i don't like mainly is that as a state are above any law and any rule.. and they are ruthless in their actions.. far worse than anyone else that ever walked on the face of the earth..

Their religion in primitive, based on self preservation, dominance, and hypocrisy.. it is absolutely anthellenic too (there are very good reasons for that) and barbaric...
they are smart but they use this advantage of them only for their own progress and wellbeeing... and they have enemies because they just can't make friends with anyone with such an attitude.. it's their problem not the rest of the worlds.. they are just too selfish..

I don't know about the others and i'm not following "trends" in my views.. i state my view always based on my personal judgment of known facts, history, and interpersonal relations.. i leave generalisations to others..

And i would say that this is a very cheap way of avoiding commenting on the real issues mentioned in my post...

Well maybe you can elaborate abit more on that because i don't understand it.. infact i don't know what you're talking about.. who is the enemy? the arabs?

DY,

You may have made Jewish "freinds" but labaling yourself as an anti-Jew as a race is giving yourself the title of a bigot. A smart man, an educated man will think in terms of "cause and effect" rather then prejudice and colour his thinking with race and religion.

~~~~~~~~~

As for your last comment, and question. At the very extreme, this situation could lead to catastrophic results for the region. Israel can not be eradicated as some of the more radical elements dream about.

We can take this discussion in that direction but it will be the one with the least probability of happening. Rather, I like to post something that I have written in another forum. It goes to my line of thinking and my wider view of the situation. It also explains my pro-Israel stance. "The enemy of my enemy is the lesser evil".

The answer to a post by a member in that forum.

~~~~~~~~

Poster X...........

Islam is the cause for all the current wars.

My response---------

If you create a entity from hate then that entity will only succeed and prosper by furthering hate.

There, sadly I gave my simplistic Western answer!

But a bit deeper....

Most of the Middle East people are living in poverty. While oil money flows like water, it either goes to a few elite or the populations are too large to enjoy the oil bonanza. Iran has billions coming in but it also has millions of unemployed. No matter what the government does for health and education, it can't provide for a "comfortable" living. Of course, it gets even WORSE in some of the others like Syria and Egypt. That is why the Hez and their "services" are popular. Unfortunately, buying into the Hez and Hamas is also buying into the benefactors ulterior motives. Iranians are NOT Arabs but their current government certainly an expert on controlling and benefiting from events.

How do you help the Arab, actually the Islamic world? By becoming a better solution then the Hezbollah. Easier said then done. There is absolutely NO WAY to provide jobs for them because the "cheap and cheerfully" low wage industrial labour is already spoken for by the Chinese and India. Secondly, the educated youth want far more then just "cheap jobs". They want BMW's and a GOOD life. Not only do you have to deal with the poverty, you also need to deal with demands of "comfortable living" by the educated. There is NO WAY to do that by the West. There is simply not enough resources even if the West wanted to.....and it doesn't want to.

As for the current Iranian government, they see this and know this and are exploiting this. After all, if Iran can initiate Hezbollah type governments throughout the region, it effectively controls the region. Control the region and you control the oil. Control the oil and you control the world. It sounds simplistic but there is precedent and proof. Iran tried to split the Western world by demanding Euro's instead of dollars for their oil. It didn't work but it wasn't for their lack of trying. Iran is using their gas to force India into anti Western policies. In fact, anytime India does not bend toi Iranian policy, the Iranian government stops and "studies" the Iran-India gas line.

The US and other Arab governments are NOT blind to any of this. They see it and they are doing something about it. When Saudi Arabia announced 1.5 billion dollar aid, it wasn't because they love the Shiia, it's because they want to choke off the Iranian attempt for regional hegemony with MONEY. Egypt, Jordan are doing their part by denouncing the Hezbollah. The Emirates are scarred shitless and financing the US behind the scenes. Kuwait it the biggest example of this. That is why I am a friend of Israel THIS month. The enemy of my enemy is a the lesser evil.

Israel needs to quash the Hezbollah success and we need to replace it by more Western friendly help IMMEDIATELY after. The Lebanese government needs to be flooded with money and create the equivalent of the Marshall Plan. Unfortunately, the government most equipped to do this had the least respect in the region. I hope NATO creates a humanitarian side and takes the lead.

Bottom line.......

Islam is not the problem. The problem is that there are significant problems in parts of the world where Islam is the dominant religion. Worse still, there are some governments that are trying to use Islam for their own advantage. The West is somewhat willing to help from a humanitarian level but ultimately because of the sheer magnitude and complexity, they will lose out and resort to war hard line solutions.

The time of the Oil Wars times are upon us......and it's going to need a lot of very smart people to navigate through it rather then bomb through it.



.

You like rushing into conclusions about others as you rush to conclusions about politics (from what i see from your later analysis on Middle East) based only on very poor arguments, half and one sided "knowledge" and personal, not well shaped, opinions Spartan...
What gave you the idea that i don't like jews because of their religion? I don't like jews because of their actions... that particular "cause and effect" that you're talking about.. and i'm not talking only about their actions during the last 50 years as Israel but about their actions thoughout history.. why don you think that the character of the jew thoughout history was always the character of a mean, hypocrite, selfish, money and power driven, outsider of the community? because that's what they are.. even Shakespeare discribes them like this...
My reference to their religion was mainly an attempt to provide a possible explanation for their attitude.. because, and i believe you will agree with me on that, the environment and the values that you grow up with shape your later attitude...

Now if by "cause and effect" you mean that someone should like or not someone else based on what suits him better at the moment (in your words "That is why I am a friend of Israel THIS month.") then i believe that this is not what a smart and educated man does.. this is what lame, selfish and short-sighted men do.. just like the jews... i prefer to be consistent in my views than changing them faster than a windshield wiper according to the monthly market trend and my bank balance...

On your analysis now..

That is not exactly correct.. oil flows like water (infact more than water over there) but money don't.. you probably know that the rule in Arab countries about the oil is that it is controlled not by the state but by the so called "7 sisters".. 5 of which are American.. so 50% goes to them and 50% to the nation..
Arab countries practically have no control on their own resources.. they have no right to create oil excanges for trading and no right to choose the currency they want to trade with... the only thing they control is the production rate and this is not actually only dictated by them (the OPEK)...
Even like this, those countries that are sided fully with US interests are very rich and their people are wealthier than most of us.. such countries are Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, and Kuweit.. very rich countries with very rich people.. and with tones of dollars to spent wherever the US tells them to spent them :)

Here is where G.W. Bush starts taking over your views.. Iran is a country that is under an embargo since the late 70s, it suffered a long war with Iraq (and guess who was supporting Iraq then), it had conflicts with the US and even if it has money they are not allowed to use them the way they want... they are poor because they are forced to be poor.. same holds with Lybia...

So this is what makes those people "buy" into Hez and Hamas.. they have no other place to spend their money actually :) and it's their only way to escape from their condition.. it's a "milde" way to oppose to their supressors..
These are the reasons that make religion grow strong over there too.. there is no alternative.. and whole generations are blocked into this with no options of investigating any alternative to what the Ayatollahs are suggesting.. US policy turned them into what they are and fueled the fanatic Islamic movement (that is a supressing form of government and people whould have opposed to it sooner or later without any external intervention.. people like freedom once they know what it is)

Syria and Egypt are a different story since that are not oil producers.. they don't have the money the rest of the Arab world has..

Ohh there is a way.. you can let them alone to progress.. they have enough money and resources to built infrastructure, buy what they need, built an industry, produce jobs for their people and even for others in the region (Pakistan, India, Afganistan, etc) but this would hurt US/Western interests and economy not only in the region but globaly maybe... how would a US company compete an Iranian one in the neighboring mouslim countries.. how would those countries still be under US control if there were strong economies to support them near them.. that is what US doesn't want..

Yes it is much to simplistic your approach... Iran is trying to find a solution to it's problems.. it is trying to escape from the US presure.. and trying to have some control is something logical.. US try the same by placing puppet governments in Arab countries, killing people by thousands, overturning other governments and financialy strugling whole countries... why Iran is bad when it is trying to fight back?
All Arabs should fight back actually.. it's their land, their resources, their welth, their lives.. they should have control over them, not US companies.. if the west wan't to be less dependent on them then we should exploit alternative energy sources not kill them for taking what they have... cave men were acting this way, not humans of the 21st century that want to call themselves civilised and educated.. but offcourse such an approach would not allow to ExxonMobil to have so many billion profits in a quarter of a year... killing is easier...

No they are not.. the US has it's agenta and Arabs are too affraid to opose to that.. blind are those that can't understanding it...

The rest of your comments are more or less covered from what i said already.. solutions exist to every problem if you want to solve it.. and for solving a problem you have to find it's root and handle it.. what US does is enlarging the problem, and actually this is what US wants.. not a solution but an area so split and separated that would be easy to control... the rest are bed time stories for the kids and food for the media and those that prefer to shape their opinions based on what they are told instead of thinking for themselves..

Panos

No comment.

DY's personal feeling towards Jews doesn't make his stasis any less true IMO...

Or are Jews simply the most misunderstood people in the history of mankind? Unlikely...

But we digress... the subject was if Hezballah are cowards or not. Clearly this is debateable at the least. And certainly there are 2 sides to ever situation, and sometimes more.

Thank you very much thermopyles.. you got to it before me...

Our topic is not the jews and if i or anyone else likes them.. our topic is Hezbolah actions... and Spartan seems to have forgoten it...

And by the way Spartan do you read the whole posts? cause it appears to me that you don't.. just stick to specific phrases (out of context actually) and jump to conclutions.. i also explained what was my reference to their religion all about.. you seem to have missed it intentionaly... so i will repeat it to you...

My reference to their religion was mainly an attempt to provide a possible explanation for their attitude.. because, and i believe you will agree with me on that, the environment and the values that you grow up with shape your later attitude...

So if you have something to contribute on the topic i'll be happy to hear it.. if you also like to talk about the jews and their particularities we can do it too..
An openminded, smart and educated man should be able to start a conversation with some arguments even against someone he believes to be wrong on his views, don't you think?
"no comment" phrases usually represent only furstration, lack of credible argumentation and evations IMHO..

Great Warrior nice to see you back vre...

About my stand...i think i made it clear...in the realted thread about lebanon..
The hezbolah mulahs...
made the bigest mistake...provocating Israel in this way...
also destroying a country like lebanon...who haid somehow manage to rebuild it self again...
in my conspirecy theorie i think..
maybe this fanatic mulahs are somehow...working for a bigger/hidden reason...than the so called destroying of Israel...which is conected..to some purposes of recreation of new borders in the region...
maybe iam wrong...
iam justing assuming this because of there stupitidy...handling this situation...in the way they did...

hiding behind civilians...is unhonorabel...
But we saw it in jugoslavia and in other warzones...

So you suggest that this whole war was done by the Mulahs Lord?
The fact that Israel was prepared for months for that and started such a large scale operation the moment the 2 soldiers were kidnapped says nothing to you?
The war crimes perfomed by Israel on the civilians also nothing?
The fact that very few bombs actually hit Hezbolah targets and that Hezbolah is up and running practically without any problem?

The mulahs are the ones that bomed the ports, airports, bridges, houses, poweplants, and other infrastructure of Lebanon?
This whole area is practically tortured for decades by Israel and the US and it is their fault to fight back?

Lord either you're viewing war as a game or something is wrong with your judgment on this one..

Giasou Lord, long time since we talked.

By "mullahs" I am assuming that you are referring to the Hezbollahs Sheik Nasrallah. Hezbollah collect "taxes" from the citizens and provide social services that are normally provided by the national government. For all intents and purposes, they area government within a government. By the mere fact that they have a well armed militia, they were able to intimidate the Lebanese government.

It is really sad to see Lebanon destroyed again. All those Lebanese people who don't give a shit about the Hezbollah now have their lives hijacked by their agenda. Effectively the Hezbollah have declared war even when the Christain Lebanee, the Sunni Lebanese and the Drew Lebanese wanted peace. Tonight I heard Nesrallah threaten to bomb TelAviv and of course, Israel responded to that threat.

What I don't understand are people who think that one nation should respond in "proportion". You slap me, I slap you, you kick me, I kick you. Why should Israel do this? For example, if Albanian splinter group formed a militai and attacked northern Greek cities and then ran back into Albania, should the world expect us to "trade kicks" for the next thirty years or should we level them? If the Albanian population fully supports the action of this Albanian militia, should they be seen as innocents or as participants? If this Albanian militia launched rockets from Tirana, should we send them flowers and money, begging them to stop or should we level them where they live?

As for the hidden agenda, who knows. It could be as smiple as a the Hazbollah underestimating the reaction of Israel or as complicated as Iran playing out a regioanl chess game.

Panos,

You have a pm.

You too my friend Spartan...

what's with the pm'ing? :doubt: Things that bad that can't be said here? :dunno:

No Thermopyles.. normal talking.. just Spartan prefered to tell me few things in private and since he prefers it this way i had to reply to him in private too.. nothing strange, offenting or different from what we talk over here.. just few clarifications..

I believe that soon we will continue the conversation as before...

OK thanks bro, just don't want any paranoia spreading! :ph43r:

We were discussing your left ear lobe and debating in secret whether to shorten the right ear or lengthen the left ear. :doubt:


:drink2:

No, Spartan, its not the ear, its the left eye thats bigger than the other! :gang beat:

Actually Israel was preparing for years.
Previous incidents

The time of full mobilitation of a modern army is around 48 hours.
And you wonder how Israel started a "Large" Operation with 10-15 thousand soldiers so soon? :lol:

As for the Hesbolah. They are cowards.
Knewing they are too week to fight against IDF they choose to hide behind civilians.
Knewing that Israel will respond, Hopping that Israel will respond so Hesbolah could use the bodies of the dead civilians als propaganda.

+1 @CRTS...

he covered me ...

Dourios we are talking about the Israelis here...not the swedes...
they are at level 1 alarm...all 24 hours...
There is no conspirecy behind this...
You touch a Jew...Worldwide...you take the consiquences..
The are masters in teaching this....

I think a reality check is in need for some.

Only idiots fight wars with "honor" that makes them "die for their country". The target of any conflict is that you defeat your opponent by any means possible. Make HIM die for his country, and obviously not you.

So far Hezbollah has been conducting a fairly brilliant campaign. Anyone think they could deal with hundreds of F-16's and MBT's, dozens of Apache and Cobra helis, and everything else Israel has with just a few thousand infantrymen, please let me know!

Modern conflicts are also fought in the press with public opinion in mind. In this regard too, Hezbollah has performed quite well. Exploiting Israeli acts (including the killings of civilians) is often quite difficult because Israel has an excellent PR machine. Is it difficult to understand that every time images of blown-out Lebanese civilians is a benefit to the PR battle Hezbollah and Lebanon are fighting? Is it a "crime" for anyone to acknowledge this fact?

General Patton, right? This has been the official policy of US for a very long time esspecially the times of cold war.

Even today, this is quite effective. I mean who can deny that the war in Lebanon is serving their benefits in a way. Who?

@Digenis
Yes but with what cost? They sacrifized a whole country IMO with wrong methods

Mystik,

Let us not forget what the goals of Hezbullah are, and exactly how this conflict erupted.

Hezbollah's long-held goal was the liberation of the Shebaa Farms and the release of all Lebanese prisoners held by Israel. Additionally, they wanted Israel to stop violating the international border (which they did every time they shelled and bombed southern Lebanon). Based on what is being proposed at the UN, Hezbollah will very likely get EVERYTHING it has demanded.

Was the cost Lebanon paid (and is paying) worth it? Let the Lebanese decide that, as they should decide the cost of the 18-year struggle by Hezbollah to extracate Israeli forces (in the period of 1982-2000).

The current crisis started because of the actions of Israel against the Palestinian Authority especially in the Gaza Strip. Has the Hezbollah action perhaps detered Israel from using such force in the future? Time will tell.

Now as seen here hizbullah wins agains t a huge isralei army they are the resistance force ,not syria not lebanon forces . But small hizbullah. Now they will have thousands more suporters and wountires.

Also labanon is desroyed also jobs are destroyed so people has no choise of joining hizbullah for hate against israel and also has no choise for survival..

what ever israel done this time didnt work.

even they were correct now they are wrong !.
And in religious teror organizations in top 10

now Hizbullah is no 1
and el kaide is no 2 now

so we have to expect to make a new terror atack to remind them selves ??

Kaan

What "terror attacks" are you talking about? Hezbollah does not use suicide bombers against civilians (unlike say Hamas). I realize that the US lists all of these organizations together as being "terrorist", but that hardly makes them the same.

Digenis,indeed some very good thought's .
We tent to forgett often what happend in the past.

First, there is a question as to who Shebaa farms belongs too. It appears that it is disputed territory between Syria and Lebanon that is now in Israeli hands. The "Shebaa Farm"sounds more as an excuse then a cause. As for Hezbollah worried about the Palestinian cause, EVERY Arab splinter group uses the Palestinains as an excuse to justify their own actions. This has to do far more about Iran's regional ambitions then the "Palestinian Cause". In fact, I was wacthing an interview with one of the more moderate Palestinian leader and he said that he is sick and tired of every self serving splinter group using their Plaestinian name as the cuase. He said that all this groups have caused FAR more apathy, if not anger for the Palestinian OUTSIDE the Arab community.

As for the Hezbolah winning, well, some of their supporters will see it as a win even if there nothing to stand on but ruble and dead bodies. If that is victory then it is the very definition of stupidity. It does not matter what the Hezbollah claim, the reality is that after this is over, the honeymoon period of the "heroes" will be over and their followers will wonder what this was all about. The average Shia on the street now faces another half genetration of rebulding and for what? Shebaa farms?

Let's not forget that Hezbullah was at ten percent BEFORE all this started. They were "heroes" 5 years ago too with wall to wall support (90%) but all too soon the people needed more then death and destruction. Unfortunatly, there is no doubt that Israel is intentionally trying to wear the "struggle" mentality out of the Shia people. The most direct way to do this is through taking their homes and jobs. Sure, the Hezbollah will try to rebuilt and look like heroes as they did before, but after a few cycles of this, the people start to look PAST "heroes" and wonder why they can not have a normal life.

Anywho....

This f*cken thing is far from over. Israel people have hardened their mentality about all this. They feel, rightly or wrongly that if they back away from this, tomorrow will be worse then today. They now see that the last withdrawal was a mistake and they are determined not to repeat it.

Syria has stated that this is indeed Lebanese territory. No real "dispute" but for the Israelis who wish to annex it (which they indeed have).

The cause for the creation of Hezbollah was the liberation of Lebanon from Israeli occupation. Israel has occupied and bombed Lebanon since 1978 (if not 1967), and it is a bit naive to asume all open issues were resolved simply by their withdrawal some 6 years ago.

Israel still occupied the Shebaa Farms, it still held Lebanese prisoners, and it still conducted operations across the international border whenever it pleased.

Perhaps they do, and in part maybe Hezbollah did the same. But the fact remains that this only occured AFTER a massive military campaign against the PA, especially in Gaza. The fact that they performed an operation similar to the one Hamas did (a cross-border assault resulting in the capture of IDF soldiers) should show you how "connected" the two events are.

This is nothing more than propaganda. It is as absurd to draw this conlcusion as it would be to state that US ambitions (in supporting a massive Israeli attack against an ally of Syria and Iran) are behind this mess.

If it were not for this current conflict, the Palestinians could very likely have been facing a civil war (or at least a very bloody confrontation between Hamas and the PLO).

They wanted the UN to "review" past decisions on the Shebaa Farms.
They want all Israeli troops to leave Lebanese territory.
They want Israel to respect the international border and not engage in cross-border operations.

All of the above are now being discussed and very likely to be offered. Not only will this be in a written document, the UN will send forces to implement the above. Hezbollah at that point won't "disappear", but in fact be merged into the national Lebanese army (which is controlled by the government which Hezbollah is a coalition member of).

Is this not a win when you achieve all of your strategic goals?

Excluding the death toll, the damage against Lebanon will be quickly repaired by outside sources.

Did anyone tell you that rebuilding is a bad thing? When a cease-fire is implemented, investments, grants, and low-interest loans will create a boom for them. This is not just the Saudi's pledging money.

When did Hezbollah have 90% of the entire Lebanese population?

You seem to ignore the fact that the most impovrished people have the least amount to risk in a conflict. If beating people down made them more pacifist, you wouldn't be talking about a Palestinian issue today.

What percent thinks that "the last withdrawal was a mistake"? The majority was and is unwilling to fund an occupation of Lebanon with money and blood. This has not changed. What the majority is currently expressing is that they should have eliminated Hezbollah back then... forgetting that this was not an easy task (which is why they left in the first place).

If Israel is smart they will cave in to the demands expressed by Lebanon, which would effectively eliminate the MILITARY wing of Hezbollah.