I read in the June, 2006 issue of "Warships International" magazine, that the Greek navy has decided to sell 4 of it's Glavkos-class U209/1100 submarines. These are the 4 oldest U209 boats that were upgraded 8-10 years ago and have sub-Harpoon launch capability. They are intended to be replaced by the new U214's under construction.

Currently Egypt is showing the most interest in purchasing these, assuming it's initial request to Germany of surplus U206's falls through. Another country showing interest for these subs is Algeria.

Hmm.. so Greece will reduce the sub fleet to 8 ships again? Or is there new ssk acqusition plan ?

Beleg, to say the truth I don't think that Greece is doing wrong by reducing the number of ships. Rising the quality and keeping the required numbers is the ideal offset IMO, there is no need to keep obsolete material.

We will also witness a shrinking of the Greek airforce as she will retire her A7's and F4's but again a purchase of Rafale's or EF's are to be expected.

In the end the target is to form a smaller force with a heavy muscle, I personally agree that it is the right way to go from military/cost effective way of approach.

It's true that Egypt has an urgent need for submarines since her fleet of Kilo's are garbage now.

Algeria signed a deal with Russia for two Project 636 Kilo SSK's and modernization of Project 877 Kilo (Rajs Hadi Mubarak) boats.

In order to maintain a flexible, highly mobile and effective force, it is rational for Greece to reduce her submarine fleet. The same does not apply to Turkey by looking from a strategical perspective.

efeler is right abouted the news...
we knew it for some months now and were concerned...(alot of similar articels arised in different magazines...)
till greece dont order new vessels...iam totally against.
a sub is the only vessel...which is form its nature agressive...
so if we fall down to 8 subs...i dont think we could cover alot of things up...

any updated news i will add soon in this thread...

Nutuk i would agree with you...100%
But greece is going to fast with reducing...in my opinion...

Those Glavkos boat are the only ones with Sub Harpoon capability till Papanikolis enters service. Poseidon will have Harpoon capability after refit, IIRC. So, if Greece sells Glavkos' to Egypt before inductionof 4 Papanikolis and completion of Poseidon / Neptune II, then there will be a capability gap of PN sub fleet in terms of USM. On the other hand Egypt's submarine requirement is urgent.

Excactly my point...
can you call out HN headquarter and tell them please...? :D

Well,I am in favour of selling those subs if we have the possibility.

We can always buy more U-214s if we realize that 8 subs are not enough.Money is no problem at all. : :bricks:

It's not 8 guys.. it's 7... 4 U214 and 3 upgraded U209/1200 AIP.. the fourth U209/1200 will be used for training only and it will not be upgraded.. 7 is the new number of subs for the HN... and it is probably small considering the 14 Turkish subs (well the 2 US subs Turkey has are probably just diesel consumers with no combat importance but still the other 12 are a considerable number)

For sure they are not that stupid to sell them before all U214s are operational.. that means in about 3 years from now.. and possibly HN has its reasons for not worring about the greater number of Turkish subs.. the Aegean itself may provide several advantages to HN relative to submarine warfare...

The 2 US sub you mention are already decomed. Infact one is in a museum in Istanbul now and if i remeber correctly the other was sent to USA for a museum as well..

I think he is talking about Hizir Reis (Tang) class submarines. Both were decommissioned in 2004, Hizirreis is in Izmit as museum ship

Hmm am i hallucinating that a sub was sent to USA? Or do i mix it up with the Guppy class?

It was S-336 Murat Reis (ex USS SS-394 Razorback), a Guppy submarine. It was sent to USA in 2004.

http://www.northlr.org/maritime-museum/pho...tos/default.asp

When considering operational status we must also take into account the HN will commence major retrofits to 3 of it's U209/1200 class with AIP. This is not an easy task as it involves cutting the boat in half. It is estimated that the entire project will take over 8 years to complete, which will mean at any given time 1 sub will be nonoperational at the shipyard in drydock. So if we also include the 1 sub used for training, this actually leaves only 4-1-1= 2 operational U209/1200's for the HN for the long run.

The TN plans a modest upgrade to 4 out of 6 U209/1200's to Preveze/Gur standard but will not include AIP. Instead a requirement and recent RFI for 4 new AIP subs was released to replace the 2 Tang (recently decomissioned) and 2 non upgraded U209/1200's. Thus the TN will still be aiming for a sub strength numbering 16 by around 2013:

4 U209/1200 (upgraded to Preveze/Gur standard)
4 U209/1400 Preveze
4 U209/1400II Gur
4 U--- with AIP (probably U214)

Well Lord, I see it more as a matter of apportioning the funds. If Greece opts for more subs she has to sacrefice some of the planned AAW frigates.

The Turkish navy has overstretched herself with the 12 Milgems, 4 planned AIP subs and LPD plans, I wonder if money is left for AAW frigates. TF2000 project has become TF2010 and with this pace it can be called TF2020.

I believe the HN should have a minimum of 10 Subs, to meet its operational requirements and this would allow it to have 2 subs in port undergoing maintenance or upgrade in the future.

The Subs being a force multiplier can hold up and take up many of the TN’s resources in trying to find / sanitize the area of operations of them.

I see on another site the Egypt has suggested to Greece to purchase equipment from the USA with FMS credits and then swap them for the Greek Subs. This would need USA’s approval and my guess of the equipment purchased on behalf of Greece would be armaments / spare parts. :dunno:

Cheers,
Alepou 340MB

Spare parts for what?The H.N. isn't using any US ships,so I guess that the weapons systems would be Harpoons/Phallanxs and spare parts would be for our P-3s/Seahawks fleet.

The Glaukos class subs were build in the early 70s,so they are almost 40 year olds.They may have been upgraded 10 years ago,they have served well for 3 decades but I think that the end of their career is near.If we can sell them,we should do it.I guess that we could come up with 500 million euros for another 2 U-214s....

I don’t think it is limited to the HN’s needs the spare parts could be for F-16s, C-130s, M-109s etc.

:hathello:

Cheers,
Alepou 340MB

Actually i was wrong dear beleg and orko.. you have more than 14 subs.. you have 5+3 U209/1400, 6 U209/1200 and 1 US made TANG class.. not 2 as i thought.. that's 15 subs... the TANG class is the Piri Reis...

The upgrade of the Greek U209 AIP is already active and the first upgraded sub is expected by the end of 2007.. by 2010 all 3 will be operational along with the 4 U214..

The Turkish Rfi for AIP subs will "bring" new subs to Turkey not earlier than 2013-15 if you finalise a contract in the following 2 years (and that is fast considering the way Turkish projects move in the last 10 years)...

Currently Turkey operates 13 subs, will be 14 when the last Gur class submarine is finished.

The Turkish subs are:

Ay class (U209-1200):
- TCG ATILAY (S-347)
- TCG SALDIRAY (S-348)
- TCG BATIRAY (S-349)
- TCG YILDIRAY (S-350)
- TCG DOÐANAY (S-351)
- TCG DOLUNAY (S-352)

Preveze class (U209-1400):
- TCG PREVEZE (S-353)
- TCG SAKARYA (S-354)
- TCG 18 MART (S-355)
- TCG ANAFARTALAR (S-356)

GÜR class (U209-1400):
- TCG GÜR (S-357)
- TCG ÇANAKKALE (S-358)
- TCG Burakreis (S-359)
(one sub is still under construction)


Tang and Guppy class submarines where all decomissioned a couple of years ago.

Both Tang's were retired in 2004

Are you sure orko? Greek military press still presents the Piri Reis as active... (not that it makes any difference to the balance of power that is active but just for beeing accurate)

The 2 new Gür class will probably replace the 2 Ay class which will not be modernised. I wonder if we will sell those subs or just scrap them... I hope if they are decided to be scrapped we keep at least one as a museum piece.

Durios we know how accurate and credible is Greek defence media is , you dont need to prove it once again..

Hahahahha.. you were just waiting for the time to say something like that beleg, huh?

Well Greek press is far more accurate than your military press judging from all those "top secret" projects that your press is refering all the time and never appear (those Toros rockets must have been operational for years now judging from your posts but their prototype just came out right?)..

This article i'm reading is 2 months old and is about the Rfi for the latest AIP subs of the Turkish NAVY (and it is very detailed on that, they actually have the original document)
At the end is a table with all Turkish subs that on a second look it must be old.. it does have the decomision of Hizir Reis but according to the table 3 of your new 209/1400 are not ready yet.. on the other hand the dates for their delivery don't make sence because if they are correct you should have only one remaining..
The table is probably from mid 2004 and things must have changed since then... i'll send a letter to the magazine for that...

Absolutely, positively sure.. They were both retired in 2004....

Dear DouriosYpnos,

I'm afraid your info is indeed out of date (by about 2 years). What Nutuk posted above is the current TN submarine fleet. Total force is 13+1. All Tang's were decommisioned and 7 out of 8 U209/1400/1400II's have thusfar been commissioned (with the last soon to come).

Speaking of the Tang class, I had actually seen one sailing across the Gulf of Gemlik around 2002. The 3 vertical fins made it look like the Loch Ness monster from far away...

Hmm.. I wasnt waiting particularly for this but wouldnt miss the opportunity..

Since Greek defence media is obsesed by Turkey (why shouldnt they be , its the only reason they sell mags) i would expect more accurate information from them..

OTOH Turkish media is well known for its lack of knowledge on military matters, even Turkish defence media sometimes shows this stupidness, average forumer here might be more knowledgable in defence matters than "Some" Turkish defence magazine authors.. a simple example a defence magazine had claimed that Spruances would join TuNavy last year in September (mag published in August) , anyone with little knowledge in this matters would know it would take quite some time to make the ship and the crew ready for sailing form USA to Turkey.. But the authors of the mag seem not to know this. When i talked face to face with the author he said he got the infor from credible(!) sources. Asked him if there were any Turkish crew sent to USA he said he wouldnt know..

Same applies for TOROS which seems to be a tech demonstation project from the beginning. In IDEF2005 some scientist from TUBITAK-SAGE said that it was never meant for mass production. Probably this was never a top secret information but the lack of a serious military press, daily newspapers boasted the news and everyone thought otherwise..

Anyway dont want to hijack the topic more i hope these explanations suffice ..

Lord, Dourios, or anybody,

Which boat is excluded from Neptune II programme? As far as I understand, that unmodernized one will be assigned as a training boat, right?

Thanks in advance

http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/dy_main.asp

from the official website of the HN:

It says that the current fleet numbers 8 subs (4 Glaukos and 4 Poseidon class) and that the 4 older will be replaced by 4 U-214.

So it was never in the HN intention to increase the numbers.

@orko

I couldn't find the name of the sub that wont get the AIP system on the HN site.Maybe someone else,who is buying greek defense magazines,can help you out.

A comparison of age between the U209's (1100/1200) operated by the TN and HN, which explains why both navies are scrapping said platforms (in brackets):

HN U209's (1100/1200):
(S110 Glavkos 1971)
(S111 Nereus 1972)
(S112 Triton 1972)
(S113 Proteus 1972)
S116 Poseidon 1979
S117 Amfrititi 1979
S118 Okeanos 1979
S119 Pontos 1980

TN U209's (1200):
(S347 Atilay 1975)
(S348 Saldiray 1975)
S349 Batiray 1978
S350 Yildiray 1981
S351 Doganay 1985
S352 Dolunay 1989

It seems the TN's U209 fleet is relatively newer then the HN's in terms of age, especially the last two, Doganay and Dolunay. The decommisioning subs for both navies are all 30+ years old (pre-1975 delivery dates).

Dont Worry 4 more subs are coming in the near future to replace any sold.

Papanikolis (S120) Katsonis-class (Type 214) HDW, Kiel February 2001 December 2003 October 2005

Pipinos (S121) Katsonis-class (Type 214)HS, Skaramanga February 2003 November 2005 July 2008

Matrozos (S122) Katsonis-class (Type 214)HS, Skaramanga February 2004 November 2006 July 2009

(S123) Katsonis-class (Type 214) HS, Skaramanga 2005 2007 2010


http://www.nti.org/db/submarines/greece/index.html

The excluded boat is the one holding the name of the class.. "Posidon"..

The three that will be modernised are in order of delivery "Okeanos", "Pontos", and "Amfitriti".

It is requested by the Submarine command that "Posidon" becomes a training sub and probably it will be...

Also, for correcting an older post of mine.. the Neptune II program is to end by 1012 and not 1010... end 2007, early 2008 the first sub will be delivered.. the seconds starts after that and then the third...

Thanks very much, much appreciated.

Modification of Poseidon to a training sub shows that PN is givng high value to sub warfare. Rational and good move indeed...

Always happy to help my friend.. :)

Yes indeed, submarine command appears to be heading in a good direction but the reduction of the fleet is not a wise move.. especially when the doctrine is defencive, small numbers can't provide the necessary flexibility needed for beeing effective at all times.. also stresses people and equipment alot...

Are you interested in subs orko? you have to see my original submarine commander soviet watch.. i bought it when i was a student in Budapest from Russian soldiers that were living town.. :)

What is so special about it?I remember that when the Soviet Unions collapsed,the Pontians were selling a lot of military stuff(mainly clothing,watches.knifes)on the market.But I was spending all my money on arcade games..... :lol:

It seems that the HN thinks that AIP is essential for surviving in the Aegean.

That is original :).. it has a blue-dark blue plate with the red soviet star on it and a submarine under it... the original stap has a compass on it too..
It is a mechanical watch that you have to wind up by hand daily but it is very accurate and has a magnificent clock mechanism with 18 rubins.. :)

Yes it is giving a very significant advantage in all aspects.. also all new subs (including the 3 upgrated) will be completely unknown to Turkey even on their accoustic signatures... it will take quite some time to the Turkish NAVY to be able to learn how to listen for them...

I think the conversion of Poseidon to a training sub is some years away. The HN will not lower the number of their submarines. The number will remain at eight. Submarines may be sold or scrapped but only if their crew is already training on their replacement. The first replacement is already on the way.
So if one sub is sold to Egypt this will probably not happen before 2007. It will take at least six months for the Egyptians to be trained and then another sub may be sold. We are talking end 2007 or 2008. By then the 2nd U-214 will be ready.

Dear Artemidoros the first U-214 Papanikolis had severe stability problems during its sailing trials about 45 degrees..It was presented a few days ago on Ant1 greek television channel..the german constructor was warned a few months ago about the problem and the problem has not been resolved..it is estimated that the first boat will be accepted by HN after the problem is resolved and that may happen not earlier from the midst of 2007..a major delay do not know how it will affect the construction level of the 3 rest in the greek shipyards..

There was a recent article in Turkish news stating that the Greek Defence ministry has refused acceptance of the first U-214 and that the construction line for the next 3 subs may be completely halted. The news also stated that the German company HDW, who owns the Skaramanga shipyard in Athens, may actually shut down the facility because of this delay.

Apparently some of the problems with the subs are as follows:

-Inability to target with periscope at speeds greater then 3 knots.
-Tremendous noise from submarine's machinary thus allowing detection from the enemy.
-Water leakage into hydraulic systems.

This is important news as this can also effect or even delay the Turkish navy's AIP submarine project which is past the RFI stage. Interestingly the German navy did not purchase the U-214 for it's own needs and stayed with the U-212, in fact buying a further 2 just recently...