Title: HN to sell 'S' type Frigates to Pakistan!
Description: THIS IS A. N. N.
Alepou 340MB - April 14, 2006 02:11 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE |
Το Πακιστάν αγοράζει ελληνικές φρεγάτες τύπου «S»
14.04.06
Σε προχωρημένο στάδιο βρίσκονται οι συνομιλίες μεταξύ του Ελληνικού Πολεμικού Ναυτικού και του ναυτικού του Πακιστάν για την παραχώρηση δύο φρεγατών τύπου «S», έναντι ποσού περίπου 80 εκατομμυρίων ευρώ.
Το Πολεμικό Ναυτικό διαθέτει 10 φρεγάτες του συγκεκριμένου τύπου. Οι προς πώληση φρεγάτες είναι δύο εκ των τεσσάρων που σύμφωνα με τις αποφάσεις που έχει λάβει το Γενικό Επιτελείο Ναυτικού (ΓΕΝ) δεν θα υποστούν πρόγραμμα εκσυγχρονισμού μέσης ζωής (mid-life upgrade). Οι συνομιλίες ξεκίνησαν πριν από έξι περίπου μήνες όταν το πακιστανικό Πολεμικό Ναυτικό, καθ’ υπόδειξη των Ολλανδών κατασκευαστών απευθύνθηκε στο Υπουργείο Εθνικής Άμυνας εκδηλώνοντας ενδιαφέρον για την απόκτηση των δύο φρεγατών «S». Ο οπλισμός των Φρεγατών του τύπου περιλαμβάνει 1 πυροβόλο ΟΤΟ Melara των 76 χιλ., 1 σύστημα εγγύς προστασίας Phalanx Mk 15 (δύο στις ΕΛΛΗ F450 και ΛΗΜΝΟΣ F451), σύστημα 8 κατευθυνόμενων βλημάτων επιφανείας-επιφανείας Harpoon RGM-84A/C, ένας οκταπλός εκτοξευτής Mk 29 βλημάτων εδάφους-αέρος Sea Sparrow με αναχορηγία 24 βλημάτων. Επίσης ανθυποβρυχιακές τορπίλες (2 διπλοί τορπιλοσωλήνες Mk 32 των 324 χιλ. και σύστημα ηλεκτρονικών αντιμέτρων. Έχει δυνατότητα μεταφοράς 2 ελικοπτέρων ΑΒ-212ASW ή ενός S70B Aegean Hawk. |
http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php...d=215&Itemid=51Sorry news link in Greek only
It reports of a possible sale to Pakistan of two “S” type Frigates from the Hellenic navy! (not the upgraded ones!)
Cheers,
Alepou 340MB :hathello:
awais - April 15, 2006 04:57 AM (GMT)
But i thought pakistan was making it's own frigate with china, they builded a few of them already and will make more. But i was'nt aware that they would be buying from other countries, They are buying one for US. But buying one from greece is a first
cameleon1975 - April 16, 2006 10:47 AM (GMT)
I hope that pakistan will buy those 2 frigates.The price is relatively low(40 million per ship)and the money could be used for upgrading the rest of the ships.
What ships is Pakistan currently using?
Lord - April 16, 2006 10:52 AM (GMT)
Yeah we selling S frigattes without having even a order for New ones...
How Greek this sounds to me... :wall:
Efeler - April 16, 2006 03:21 PM (GMT)
There was an article by the Associated Press of Pakistan from about a month ago for a Pakistani interest of acquiring ships from both the Netherlands and Turkey. Thus I am assuming the discussions with the Netherlands might have been for actual approval for the transfer of the ex-Dutch Standard class in Greek service. It is not clear what kind of ship Pakistan was interested in from the Turkish navy.
| QUOTE |
Pakistan looking to acquire Frigates, Support ships from Netherlands, Turkey: Admiral Afzal Tahir
ISLAMABAD, Mar 20 (APP): Pakistan Navy is looking to enhance cooperation with Netherlands and Turkey including acquisition of Frigates and Support ships, said Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir.
“We are looking forward to acquire larger platforms from them,” the Chief of Naval Staff said while talking to APP at Islamabad Airpot on Monday on return after successful visits to Netherlands and Turkey.
Besides, initial talks on acquisition of large platforms, mutual bilateral talks on future combined operations and training with Turkish Navy also came under discussion, he said.
The Naval Chief expressed satisfaction on the successful tour and hoped the visit would enhance the already existing deep-rooted friendship with Turkey and Netherlands. “I had very useful meetings with the heads of the navies of both the countries,” said Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir.
Earlier, on arrival the Chief of the Naval Sataff was received by Vice Chief of Naval Staff Vice Admiral Mohammad Haroon, Turkish Ambassador Kemal Gur, Ambassador of Netherlands Willem Andrea and other senior naval officers. |
Saturn5 - April 17, 2006 02:20 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Lord @ Apr 16 2006, 12:52 PM) |
Yeah we selling S frigattes without having even a order for New ones...
How Greek this sounds to me... :wall: |
Lord,
HN must somehow find money if they want to operate modern and expensive warships (e.g FREMM). So selling a few old ship is an option to raise some money.
On the other hand if I was in PN I would buy directly from Holland instead of buying some second hand Dutch ships from Grecce.
ChrisCRTS - April 17, 2006 04:38 PM (GMT)
The money will com when the Fremm replace the old frigates.
ie one old expencive to operate in excange with a new less expencive.
No need to low our fight strength before a final desision was made.
Valen_gr - April 17, 2006 09:09 PM (GMT)
saturn, what you say does not make sense.
Holland has no ships to spare. Those that are in service now are there to stay, or have other plans already set for their future (like 2 earmarked for the chileans.
Anyway, obviously the pakistanis are on a tight budget and are not about to buy a new build western frigate, which would set them back a few hundred million at least.
The dutch having no ships other than new ones to sell, directed them to greece, which has plans to reduce the number of S frigates anyway.
So, we get to sell something we were going to anyway, and they get a semi-decent frigate at a very good price.
After all, dont forget that they ARE armed with harpoons, and they do have a 130km range. They should be quite usefull in the indian ocean.
Anyway, those are my thoughts at least
Lord - April 18, 2006 07:55 AM (GMT)
Yes Valen you are right that the thoughts behind this move...I agree...
Though I would like to have some specific order going on by the HN before selling some minor vessels...I know we have a plan for 4-8 new frigates it is announced in the new EMBAE plan...
But its "aoriston"...
| QUOTE |
| No need to low our fight strength before a final desision was made |
@ChrisCRTS ..Excactly my point...too.
Isnt it enough that we lower our Frigates to 24 instead of having 18 frigattes in the Aegean...(something that i see as necessary) We are even selling...? <_<
We are rashing things up..and i dont like this...Opios vazietai skontafti...says A greek saying...
We were in rush with the corvetes....and what happens...? Super Vita came out...
Which of cors isnt so bad...But i would prefer the Meko
anyway this are my thoughts about the subject...
Regards
ChrisCRTS - April 18, 2006 05:10 PM (GMT)
@Lord: The worst part is the crew!
Now we have an active crew from Captain to sailor. They and their knowlege of see operations are going to be lost to us!
PINDOS - April 19, 2006 12:44 PM (GMT)
The talks are about the Elli and the Limnos, right? These are the first two S-type frigates that Greece bought, but they are newer than a couple of other S-type frigates... If I am not mistaken the Elli and the Limnos have better anti-aircraft defense mechanisms than the other Kortenaer-class, right?
Alepou 340MB - April 19, 2006 01:57 PM (GMT)
@pindos,
No the ships for sale are not mentioned by name or number!
The article just states that Elli and Lemnos have 2 phalanx systems each and most of the others have only one phalanx system.
Cheers,
Alepou 340MB :hathello:
Alepou 340MB - May 15, 2006 11:33 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE |
Pakistan to acquire four frigates from Greece : PM
ATHENS (GREECE), May 15 (APP):
Greece will provide four frigates for the Pakistan Navy, two of which will be delivered this year, Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz said Monday.
The two countries are looking forward to stronger ties in defence and security related matters and have agreed on the deal, Prime Minister Aziz told the media team accompanying him on his four-nation visit.
Without giving details of the deal, he said Pakistan was acquiring used frigates.
He said two frigates would be delivered this year and the other two in 2007.
The Hellenic Navy uses Elli class frigates and the same would be provided to Pakistan.
Pakistan has been acquiring defence equipment from various countries to meet its defence needs. |
robust - May 16, 2006 12:39 AM (GMT)
How many Frigates does Greece operate? Selling four of major surface war ships is a major force reduction in the short term...Are there replacement ships or projects for Greek Navy?
Nutuk - May 16, 2006 05:41 AM (GMT)
Yeah Greeks dream about FREMM purchase but ending up with Meko A-200 class frigates is more likely since their main shipyards have been bought by Germans.
The largest one Hellenic shipyards belongs to the Thyssen Krupp Marine Systems (hence building german subs U214)
cameleon1975 - May 16, 2006 09:30 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Nutuk @ May 16 2006, 07:41 AM) |
Yeah Greeks dream about FREMM purchase but ending up with Meko A-200 class frigates is more likely since their main shipyards have been bought by Germans.
The largest one Hellenic shipyards belongs to the Thyssen Krupp Marine Systems (hence building german subs U214) |
Nothing wrong with dreaming..... ;)
It is true that Skaramanga shipyards are part of the Thyssen group but the Elefsina shipyards are offering the Fremm frigate.Anyway,the selling of 4 frigates points out that the HN is going to choose soon a new ship.
Alepou 340MB - May 16, 2006 01:04 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (awais @ Apr 15 2006, 06:57 AM) |
| But buying one from greece is a first |
Well it looks like it will be 4 now!
Cheers,
Alepou 340MB :hathello:
Efeler - May 16, 2006 01:55 PM (GMT)
This is very strange news. Even though the 4 recently acquired Kortenaer class are not the best of ships (they even lack a CIWS), getting rid of the 4 frontline ships within 2 years would require some sort of gap-filler in the works... If a new frigate construction project was signed today, it would take at least 4-5 years for the first ship to be commissioned.
Perhaps there is an indication that Turkey turned down the 2 Spruance while still scrapping all Knox within 2 years... thus reducing current surface numbers likewise.
ChrisCRTS - May 16, 2006 05:11 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Nutuk @ May 16 2006, 07:41 AM) |
Yeah Greeks dream about FREMM purchase but ending up with Meko A-200 class frigates is more likely since their main shipyards have been bought by Germans.
The largest one Hellenic shipyards belongs to the Thyssen Krupp Marine Systems (hence building german subs U214) |
That's right! Stop dreaming about FREMM! :angry:
The German owning our Shippyards would make a deal about Sachen klass perfect! :applause: :applause:
4 "S"? Give them all spare the money. :damn: :wall:
Nutuk - May 16, 2006 05:33 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (Efeler @ May 16 2006, 03:55 PM) |
| Perhaps there is an indication that Turkey turned down the 2 Spruance while still scrapping all Knox within 2 years... thus reducing current surface numbers likewise. |
An interesting thought Efeler, yes the 3 knoxes will be scrapped and there is still no definite transfer of the Spruances although also no signs of being rejected.
modus - May 16, 2006 05:44 PM (GMT)
The Spruance transfer approval process in US was only completed in late December 05. It's still early to speak of any admissions or rejections.
On the other hand, it's good to sell vessels that are not cost-efficient any more. Still, filling the gap (not only in terms of quantity but of quality as well) will cost billions of Euros. Since the unit price of any given multipurpose frigate is no less than Eur 500 Million, and a dedicated AAW frigate is almost double that price tag. A good solution may be paying for at least 2 AAW frigtes, and asking for at least 2 second-hand multi-purpose frigates. But this option seems to have been overruled by Greek Navy Staff. :sbof:
boulio - May 16, 2006 05:58 PM (GMT)
any confirmation from greek sources because i didn't even hear about two frigates being sold let alone four.
Alepou 340MB - May 17, 2006 01:52 AM (GMT)
A view from India.
| QUOTE |
After China, Pakistan turns to Greece to build its frigate fleet
Shiv Aroor
Posted online: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 at 0000 hrs
India has 13, in 6 years both may have the same number
NEW DELHI, MAY 16:The Indian Navy today watched closely its Pakistani counterpart beefing up its warship arsenal by ordering four frigates from Greece, and augmenting an existing agreement it has with China to build four F-22P frigates in Karachi starting next year.
Picture this: The Pakistani Navy has seven frigates, as compared to the 13 operated by India. By 2007-end, Pakistan will have 11 frigates to India’s 14. By 2012, the number in both navies could well be the same.
From the maritime defence point of view, Islamabad’s move to build up its frigate strength is significant. While India has long held that its possession of an aircraft carrier gave it a sizeable operational edge over other navies of the region, including Pakistan’s, both navies are now looking at frigates as compact and power-packed platforms capable of the full spectrum of offensive profiles.
Frigates, usually 3,000-4,000 ton warships, are wedged in every sense between missile corvettes at the lower end and the much more heavily armed and longer range destroyers at the upper end, with specialisation in anti-submarine warfare, though newer variants have multiple roles.
The Indian Navy is also keeping tabs on the ongoing visit of Pakistani Navy Chief, Admiral Mohammad Afzal Tahir, to China to push ahead talks on co-production of F-22P frigates in Pakistan.
The navy has long been expressing concern over Beijing’s extremely rapid manufacture and procurement of warships.
‘‘There is no cause for undue worry, but this is an area in which the Pakistan Navy lacks indigenous capability, and the fact that they are now expediting a solution is of importance to us. We know that they plan to acquire indigenous technology to build frigates, and it is a focus area for them,’’ a senior naval officer said.
The seven now in the Pakistani fleet are Ex-Royal Navy frigates.
The Indian Navy’s 13 include three indigenous Godavari-class, three Russian-built Talwar-class, three indigenous Brahmaputra-class and four British Leander-class frigates, the latter almost nearing the end of their operational life. Three Shivalik-class stealth frigates are currently being built at the Western shipyards and three more Talwar-class ships are on order from Russia.
In fact, as a show of its frigate strength and indigenous weapons platforms that will be part of the upcoming Shivalik-class, the Indian Navy is sending its newest frigate INS Tabar, commissioned in 2004, to Australia next month. |
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/4594.htmlI think the Greek journalists were on strike yesterday. :call:
Cheers,
Alepou 340MB :hathello:
Efeler - May 17, 2006 02:11 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (modus @ May 16 2006, 01:44 PM) |
The Spruance transfer approval process in US was only completed in late December 05. It's still early to speak of any admissions or rejections.
|
The plan however was for the first Spruance class to transfer this year and the second next year. In order to meet this tight schedule naval personel should already be in the US for training in order to bring home the first ship this year (hopefully before August 30 Zafer Bayrami) in an as is state. Or at the least a formal acceptance for the ships should have taken place...
As for the sudden Greek plan to scrap 4 frontline ships. Do you think the US approved the 2 Arleigh Burke transfer request?... :doubt:
Lord - May 17, 2006 04:56 PM (GMT)
Yes indeed you are right Efeler...
adding to your thoughts....
Even if the HN would order Now new frigattes...we would need more than 4 years...(especially if we talk about the FREMM)
2.Yes there is a need for AAW ...Iam shure the Spruance will come soon...to fill some Gap...
3.FREMM programm is a must for greece...But as Chris mentioned the Germans didnt spoke the last word yet...
so it wouldnt suprise me if we would go finally for the Sachsen class...
My opinion is that we will give for shure 2-4 of the S class...(since 4 arent upgraded)...
We prefer to upgraed the MEKOs...
The US would fill any gap...promptly...till than all stays like it is...
But the HN staff wants "new" vessels...
I hope only we wont get under the so called 14 number of frigattes ....
There are for shure alot of interested Navys in the world who would gladly want the S class...(Pakistan also Chile...etc etc)
Regards till further info...
Lord - May 17, 2006 05:17 PM (GMT)
Ah yes reminded me of Artis list...
Navy
3+3 frigates 1,400+1,400 Enough for FREMM with all their missiles etc
5 maritime aircraft 250
upgrading of MEKO frigates 200
submarine resque ship 180
5 2nd hand mine-hunters 200
3 FAC 450
another support ship/tanker 200
3 gunboats 150
3 S70B helis 150
missile upgrading 100
a landing ship/command and control 150
expences for peacekeeping 501 :shock:
Efeler - May 17, 2006 06:13 PM (GMT)
One important item we forgot to mention was that Pakistan was also to receive one Spruance destroyer (USS Fletcher). However, now considering that they have opted to purchase 4 frigates from Greece, does this mean the Spruance transfer has been cancelled? If so, to whom will the Fletcher go?
This is more of a guessing game, but since the HN is on the lookout for a dedicated AAW platform, can there be a possible Ticonderoga (2 ship) offer pending to Greece (I still don't think an A. Burke transfer is possible) to replace 4 of the oldest frigates. The crew of the 4 Kortanaer's sold to Pakistan can roughly compliment 2 Tico's. Meanwhile the Spruance that Pakistan refused would go to Turkey as the 3rd DD.
These are only my thoughts however, and something like this would definately delay Greece's 3+3 frigate program by at least 10 years and make the Europeans (French and Germans) very very angry....
cameleon1975 - May 17, 2006 06:38 PM (GMT)
Well they were angry when we cancelled the Eurofighter deal some year and bought the F-16s but here they are,still knocking at our door,trying to sell their goodies. ;)
I don't think that we will setlle with anything less than AEGIS destroyers if we are going to replace the ''S'' class frigates with second hand ships.But I consider that buying a new ship is more probable.
DirtyBird - May 17, 2006 08:59 PM (GMT)
I find it highly unlikely for the US to transfer Tico's to the HN without making the same offer to the TN.
The Tico's would be a good lead in to an eventual new build AAW frigate class for both navies, which is desperately needed. We know the HN is eventually interested in the FREMM, when is the TN supposed to reinitiate the TF-2000 project and is the requirement still for local design?
beleg - May 18, 2006 08:09 AM (GMT)
Probably when USA releases the whole suite (radar+missiles+electronics etc..) for us :)
Lord - May 18, 2006 09:15 AM (GMT)
And Beleg hit the target ones again...
Efeler the problem arent the ships...to be transfered...The US transferes simply and almost anything...
But without the goddies Beleg mentioned... <_<
I remind about the SM2 in the Kidds class...
Therefore my opinion is that it dosent matters if we will have some delay of years for getting new vessels full equipped ..rather to have,...'empty" shells...presenting only military advertisement in the Aegean...
The HN should stay correctly on the way to gain new ships...
Regards
FANTASMA - October 13, 2006 11:53 AM (GMT)
Maybe an old thread but let me send my views..the FREMMs case looks very interesting equipped with Aster 30 (120 km range) and Naval Scalp (1000km range)..In case of a FREMM AAW the cost is about 700mn..the budget for the project is about 2.8 bn euros until 2017. So 2 AAW and 3-4 multipurpose frigates is a good option..
Lord - October 14, 2006 11:07 AM (GMT)
In the new defence Magize is an articel abou the future possibel purchase of the HN...
with a comperison...
I have to say...i am more impressed with the Dutch made..De Seven Provincien...instead of the FREMM...
if i can i will add the articel...
FANTASMA - October 25, 2006 12:52 PM (GMT)
The Dutch case is rather interesting..if the LCF is selected the package may include 2-4 Karel Doorman frigates that the Netherlands are looking in the near future to have them for sale..the Kortenaer modernisation boats may reduced to 4 so the budget for the initial six boats will be directed to 4 boats so a better level of modernisation..So 6 LCF, +2-4 Karel Doorman's,+4 Meko 200 modernised, + 4 mordenised Kortenaer's.
Nutuk - October 25, 2006 07:30 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (FANTASMA @ Oct 25 2006, 02:52 PM) |
| So 6 LCF, +2-4 Karel Doorman's,+4 Meko 200 modernised, + 4 mordenised Kortenaer's. |
:applause: hehehehe....
And the Greek landforces have to be cut to halfsize to equip the frigates :D
chris450 - October 26, 2006 10:53 AM (GMT)
jee what a clever comment...what are you,10 years old?
Efeler - October 26, 2006 05:00 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (FANTASMA @ Oct 25 2006, 08:52 AM) |
| The Dutch case is rather interesting..if the LCF is selected the package may include 2-4 Karel Doorman frigates that the Netherlands are looking in the near future to have them for sale..the Kortenaer modernisation boats may reduced to 4 so the budget for the initial six boats will be directed to 4 boats so a better level of modernisation..So 6 LCF, +2-4 Karel Doorman's,+4 Meko 200 modernised, + 4 mordenised Kortenaer's. |
Portugal is interested in purchasing 2 of the 4 remaining Karel Doorman class as we speak. If this is the case, then the HN will only be able to buy 2 ships.
But if 6 LCF and 4 Karel Doorman (total 10 ships!) can be acquired, I see little reason in even modernizing 4 Kortanaers (or perhaps until the first 4 LCF's arrive). I don't think the HN will maintain a fleet strength of 18 frigates. More like maximum 14 as how it is now, or even less.