I won't comment about agreeing or disagreeing with the decision against a specific member of the forum, but why impose a permanent ban?

Any disciplinary action against forum members should be used to alter behavior that violates rules. In the rare exception where we have repeat offenders (with a history of bans) should a permanent ban even be considered.

Let us not get into the position where we palce permanent bans on individuals simply because they "offend" someone.

Digenis,

This was in no way an easy decision. The time lapse for his ban should be an indicator. I cannot comment further than this, but I will say that Pytheas had alot of advice on how to be more tactful, and the climate we are trying to create here at WCF. He had MANY warnings and chances to change his attitude, yet showed us no intention of doing so. Believe me, this dicision was not on a whim, and was not easy. But we had little (and dangerous) choice...

Digeni, pistepse me, eidika emeis oi Ellines prospathisame para ma para poly... Sto simeio pou eftasan ta pragmata, kai pou dystyxws einai kati pou diafainotan me mathimatiki akriveia, den ypirxe tropos na swthei, ektos ki an katerree to systima kati pou den tha ginotan pote... Des kai auto to link...

http://s7.invisionfree.com/worldconflictsf...?showtopic=2832

Thermo,

This issue goes well beyond any specific member. There should be a clearly documented policy on how to deal with violations of forum rules. Did he get his 5 warnings? How many temporary bans result in a permanent ban? Simple questions, no?

On a deeper level, I am quite disturbed that someone received a permanent ban simply because they were antagonistic or consistently posted "negative" articles. Obviously there is a fine line between the above and "flame baiting" (especially with generalizations about religion) but there is a less severe way of dealing with it.

I have repeatedly asked that the goals and ambitions of this forum be clearly defined. Are we here to exchange accurate information in a civil way (which will obviously include opposing, negative, and even antagonistic views), or are we going to censor everyone in order to build some pseudo "brotherhood"? Are we going to expel people who oppose Turkish EU membership or people who promote "gray zones"?

Obviously we have not reached that stage, but is that where we are heading?

And before anyone jumps on my neck for supporting Pytheas, let me state that he questioned by patriotic motivations among many other personal exchanges. Regardless of that, I have a thick enough skin to understand what freedom of speech means and what should be tolerated.

Hades,

You mention "mathimatiki akriveia" which can also be translated into an abuse of the majority. There should be principles that this forum should uphold (where possible), including the freedom to voice unpopular statements.

I made a couple of recommendations in the past to deal with this and similar issues, and none were this drastic. It is conceivably easier to label certain matters as being "off topic" for this forum (like honor killings, etc.). It is also easier to lock threads that have been posted on other forums (once reported by those offended by member statements on other forums). It is also easier to warn members when they engage in such actions (since they would be clear violations of forum rules).

To start analyzing what someone wrote and to pass judgement on its content (when no expletives are used) is certainly not a characteristic of a democratic system.

When all these measures have failed, espesially the last one, what then can someone possibly do???

Digeni, sou xw pei kai sto parelthon oti se ektimw kai sevomai toso esena san forumer oso kai tis apopseis sou vathytata giati an mi ti allo einai tekmiriwmenes kai xtypoun kentro. Opws episis goustarw poly otan pianeis kayta themata me tetoio tropo se simeio pou na ponane tous etairous, alla einai me to vamvaki kai den mporei na sou pei kaneis tipota... Gia paradeigma to thread me ton Milosevic; egw to eipa emmesa, o Lord kai eidilka esy amesa, kai eilikrina to xarika giati den yparxei perithwrio antidrasis i amfisvitisis... Toso egw oso kai o Lord symvoulepsame, parotryname kai voithisame ton Pythea pollakis, alla den eixe ton tropo na akrovatisei panw sta themata i na kratisei apostaseis... Omologw oti i thematologia tou mou arese giati itan kaystiki isws kai eristiki merikes fores, alla re gamwto den tin ypostirize opws eprepe kai prokalouse poly... Tespa, den exw to xrono na synexisw ti skepsi mou, exw mia doulitsa na kanw, alla an thes to syzitame...

Kai kati akoma: Den dexomai vre Digeni na exoun symmorfwthei alloi ki alloi apo tous etairous (karampinata flaming onomata pou den anaferw gia eunoitous logous) kai na dimiourgoun provlimata oi dikoi mas, apla den mporw na to dextw... Auta ta oliga... Ta leme adelfe

Hades,

I'll keep it in English for the benefit of the Turkish members. The points I am raising go beyond one specific member (Pytheas). I don't question your (or Lord's) attempts to modify his behavior. I am simply not in agreement with such a drastic "resolution".

I hope however that we do see the establishment of a firm policy on how warnings are issued and how bans are enforced.

Dionyse it wasnt a drastic resolution at all...hes warn level was allways at 80%...for a long time...he haid hes temporary ban...at the beginning of the forum...and so on and so on...
Believe me it wasnt at all drastic...
Therefore we are in harmony with our rules...100%

Do you have the feeling that ...a opposite opinion...in the WCF is controlled ?
I dont think so...

It has to be contacted in the specific way ...the civilized way.

any other way ...to say/write down an opinion is not acceptebel.

In respect to Turkish members who want to read this thread..i wrote this few words about our stand in english...But i would prever to continiou if you like in greek...for better explanation...


Regards

Theo,

I started the thread stating that my comments were not for "a specific member of the forum". I have no doubt that you, many moderators, and many members (including myself) have in the past encouraged certain members to alter their behavior.

I believe however that it would be to the benefit of the forum to have a set policy on how warnings are issued (and publically announced), when temporary bans are enforced, and how many temporary bans result in a permanent one.

Furthermore, I do not wish to see this forum transform itself into a whining and "politically correct" exchange. Did anyone complain when Aselsan posted 5 "negative" news articles in a single day (the same offense that got Pytheas banned)? Of course not, nor do I see any reason to make it a "reportable" issue.

Some people need to leave their sensitivities at home. I obviously do not condone insulting behavior, but "insulting" is in the eye of the beholder (as I apparently am guilty in the eyes of some for "comparing" Kemal to Slobo).

Mind you, someone calling Slobo a "butcher" is accepted without so much as a whisper, but I wonder what the reaction would be if I said the same about another political/military personality.

I might be wrong, but hopefully I am entitled to my opinion. And fortunately for me I cannot imagine any of my settings (social clubs, university, work, etc.) placing a PERMANENT ban on someone for expressing an opinion. Of course people have gotten kicked out on occasion, but the door is always open for their return when they "settle down".

This is NOT why he got banned. Read the ban post again.

Thermo,

I read your post, but I also read modus':

http://s7.invisionfree.com/worldconflictsf...?showtopic=2832

Point is that Aselsan violated exactly what Hakan explicitly mentions in the same sentence about Pytheas' ban (in fact, the ONLY explicitly mentioned violation).

Duo metra kai duo stathma?

Dear Digenis,

With all my respect I have to reject your criticism as to first implying that we are implementing rules personally and not systematically, and secondly that we are not fair in implementing the same.

We, in principle, cannot disclose each and every step taken for the proper conduct of this forum, and especially measures against members, including but not limited to warnings, temporary bans etc. This has nothing to do with democracy, but instead is a concern of the team to preserve the privacy of individual members, clearly aimed at to provide decent means for any member, who is thought to have violated rules can reconsider her/his acts, and continue her/his participation/contribution in line with forum rules.

Here the concerned person was duly warned in line with the forum rules and code of conduct of moderators and in fact we do have a clear and systematic way of taking measures against violations and members in charge thereof. I hereby reject your third claim that we do not have any.

Our forum rules provide that:

Measures

1. In case above rules are violated, members may be subject to certain impositions in accordance with the severity of the act, insistent disobedience, and indifference to appropriate warnings made either via five-level warning level indicator, PMs, moderating notices on the original posts, or via e-mail.

2. Impositions:

a) Warning: Mild violations shall be warned.

b ) Temporary Ban: In case of insistence or indifference, the right to post of relevant members may be suspended for a given period of time, being not less than 24 hrs.

c) Permanent Ban: In case of insistence or indifference despite and after the temporary ban, the relevant members shall be permanently banned.

d) Instant Ban: In severe violations it is in the sole discretion of the administrators whether to instantly ban the relevant member permanently.

http://s7.invisionfree.com/worldconflictsf...p?showtopic=342

According to above rules there is no misconduct by the team. And your claims that he was banned because of his thoughts is not only groundless but also undermining efforts that have been shown hitherto by the team in order not to renounce freedom of expression in any case whatsoever. I think you should be well aware of our stance as evidenced in many occassions. We are extremely sorry for such claims can be raised against our team, which tried its best to resolve the situation without any ban.

Our team adopted unanimous decision principle in whether to take harsh measures against any member. We did not make decisions with majority votes in delicate issues. And we all voted for ban of the concerned person. We all feel sorry for banning a person, but we do not feel any sense of unfairness, or misconduct. We are quite comfortable with our decision, and we do not have any issue that cannot be explained or otherwise justified with the forum rules and code of conduct.

For your kind information.

My best

I never implied such things. If I wish to take a position (and I have on this matter) I do it with overt statements that leave little or no ambiguity.

I have stated repeatedly on this thread that my objections do not stem based on the person most effected by the decision. I asked how the warning system is utilized, and how many temporary bans lead to a permanent one. These questions have nothing whatsoever to do with a single incident.

The policy in the past has been that these actions would be rightfully publicized. The reasons for this include member oversight and also for clarification with regard to what activities will not be tolerated on the forum.

I never made such a claim. Furthermore, I would be highly surprised if anyone can have their THOUGHTS censored. I made a few comments about general statements and by what rules they would be scrutinized:
"To start analyzing what someone wrote and to pass judgement on its content (when no expletives are used) is certainly not a characteristic of a democratic system."

I firmly stand by the above position.

I am not undermining your efforts. If anything I provided a number of options last week that could have resolved many of these issues. Instead of enacting policies that can easily be interpreted (ex: no off-topic messages) we now have a rule that is open to discretionary application. Who will determine what is "negative" and what is "offensive" (when no insults are used)?

Getting back to the systematic application, will we see a warning or ban of Aselsan for his "negative" news articles? I hope not (as I am not offended by them in any way) but I'd like to see how universal these rules are in application.

My best regards.

This is my final attempt to get you to understand.

Where does he say that multiple negative posts was the reason pytheas was banned?

There is no reason stated, only that we decided to ban him.

Continues to warn unnamed members against the above. Again, no reason for pytheas ban is given here.

While here,

The reason is given very clearly.

Don't get hooked up on the words and expressions too much Digenis. Pytheas was banned because the admin team was convinced that his purpose of presence in this forum was to challenge the admin team, discredit their effort to prove that Greeks and Turks can work together, play the sarcastic and the subtle game within his hidden agenda, undermine the atmosphere of friendship and brotherhood in the forum, act against the very soul that we have been trying to create here.

No forumer in the history of WCF has persistently gone that far like him. All these reasons, let alone the violation of rules, are more than enough for me to think, with clear conscience, that he deserved the ban.

I respect your questions Digeni...you know i do...

But this time believe me the whole WCF Team haid to go for this choice...stricktly following the rules and the ethic of this forum...
It has nothing to do with Free speach or opinion ,which you rightfull defend...
But defend from who...
I and each member in here...and the Team...are defending the same you are...

Picard really hit the point 100%

also you mentioned the slobo thread...If you go back there you see...my theses is the same like yours...

and I know there is no need to tell you ...what are the differentses between Pytheas or Aselsan 'like" Threads...

I know that in some threads /posts the opinions will stay divorsed...between 'greeks" and "Turks"...But did you ever see a forum simiular to WCF...were mostly 80% of the threads...we started...
No "natiolanlity limits" existed?
There is no antagonistic-flame-BS anymore between us...this dosent mean that we created a Disney world forum...of fake Brotherhood..But reall opinion...and real feelings ...together with trust...is the back bone of this forum....


Regards

Let me translate;


Digeni, believe me, we Greeks especially tried very very hard..the point that things reached, and that unfortunately was foreseen with mathematical precision, there was no way to be saved, unless the system collaped, something that was bound to never happen...check out this link also


http://s7.invisionfree.com/worldconflictsf...?showtopic=2832





regards,
CDTRF

The other one's translation;


One more thing: i dont accept, Digeni, others to have been brought to their senses by the partners (striking names that i do not mention for obvious reasons) and us creating problems, i just cannot accept that...thats all...catch you later brother







regards,
CDTRF

Btw. what is the status of DerKrieger ? Is he still banned ?
I hope after the tempban he can return...


Ps it is a good decision that pytheus is banned. Now i hope we ill forget the whole issue and go to the common business....ok ?

and the others;

here s the translation,

Digeni, i told you before that i appreciate you as a forumer as well as your opinions deeply because, if anything, they are justified and spot on. But i also like it when you touch upon hot issues in such a way that it hurts our partners, but this is being mildly done so noone can tell you nothing. For example the thread with Milosevic: i said it indirectly, Lord and especially you, directly, and i really enjoyed it cause there is no room for reaction.(CDTRF: hmm interesting...B) )



and

me as well as Lord, advised, motivated and helped Pytheas more than once, but he didnt have the way to balance on certain issues or keep distance from them.(B)) I confess (CDTRF:really?) that i liked his agenda(CDTRF: If you want more,please contact with admins) because it was caustic, perhaps even provocative at some points, but he could not support it properly and he was provocative at the same time. Anyway, i got no time to finish my though, i got a bit of work to do, but we can talk about it if you like... (CDTRF:(B), please inform us at the same time...:lol: )






Maybe, it gives all more information to understand what they write here.


regards,
CDTRF

Dear CleardayTR-Force,

They are not 'they', they are our brothers, when a member, including the mod/admin team, here needs to use her/his mother tongue this is not because of hiding something, but because it's somehow easier to express one's own feelings, thoughts especially on the delicate issues. I feel the same sometimes. So please take it that way.

I can safely assure you that we have full confidence in our brothers, because it's tested and approved in many occassions including the last one, which is the most minor one indeed, when one remembers the history.

I honestly need your participation and contribution for the good of this forum, and its vision for prospective enlargement, or transformation.

:drink: (And for the God's sake say NO to your boss, and spare a little time for your compatriots to have fish and chips (sHiiiit), I mean Raki... We have a wonderful place to go man, and wonderful lads to go through almost everything... from the uses of beans to I-HAWK) :)

CDTRF,

I don't know if you just misunderstand or your just paranoid. :wacko: "thematologia" is not "agenda". Sorry, no one was behind his agenda. It is his topics of discussion. And in some cases, he was actualy a good poster. As for the rest of the quotes your really taking them out of context with your sarcastic parenthetical comments, and it seems to me your looking for reasons of subversion. So please, don't look past the actual meaning. There is no deeper meaning, and to continue as if anyone on the Mod/admin team has a hidden agenda is disrespectful to put it lightly.

Dear Kiziroglu,

Derkrieiger can safely post here as each and every member and the team. I am looking forward for his participation.

I deeply understand you and I naturally believe in you. But I smell different things here. There are few really good Greek members around not all. And I can always be a friend of them.

But please where is the language border here? Picard locked a thread(normally) when we used some greek sentences in other forums with Greek friends. Why didnt we do it here? Is it a good manner to type native language when we dont understand?



Thermopyles,

Anyway, I have only translated. There is no need to say some burning words like "paranoid", be fine and good.




best wishes,
CDTRF

I think some of you are seeing the tree and ignoring the forest. The issue was NOT about Pytheas, it is about the ability to express unpopular statements on this forum. Statements that could be viewed as "offensive", "inflammatory", or "negative" should not be scrutinized or analyzed, especially in a non-public setting.

It is a dangerous path to follow if sanctions will be placed on anyone who expressed views that:

Since when has this forum's stated goal been to foster "friendship and brotherhood"? My understanding has been (reading the original forum rules) that expressing ANY (on-topic) opinion in a civil manner and with valid supporting material is ALLOWED. Instead we are now seeing that censorship will be allowed based on the sensitivities of some members.

After a number of requests on this thread, and a number of responses by moderators and admins, we have still not been presented with a clear policy on how warnings lead to temporary bans (and their duration), and how many of those result in a permanent ban. The only information that has been provided is that any disciplinary actions will not be announced to the broader membership.

In essence some wish to create a system where members can be reprimanded in private for expressing opinions (even if in a civil manner), which can include a permanent ban. What would any of you call such a system if applied by a government on its people?

Thermo, thank you for teaching me that a period and a comma are interchangeable. You're missing the point however that Aselsan is in violation of the policy that Modus was outlining in that sentence. The fact that these actions took place 4 days ago - which have been brought to your attention - and yet no disciplinary measures have been taken indicate an ARBITRARY application of these new rules. That is neither fair nor democratic.

For the record (once again, since it seems so many people wish to draw different conclusions even when there is no ambiguity in my statements): I do not have an objection with Aselsan's "negative" news stories, but I do have serious objections with this new policy and the arbitrary way with which it is enforced.

What is a "good Greek" to you Clearday? Someone who will praise Kemal and never mention the crimes Turkey has committed against Hellas and Hellenism? A good forum member is the one that expresses his views in a cordial manner, and uses documentation to support his position. Since this forum chooses to discuss political, historical, and military topics, you're bound to hear the Hellenic version (which is the truth), even if it offends you.

Your translation of what Hades stated:

Some of Pythea's posts were "caustic, perhaps even provocative" as were the reports on the anti-Hellenic protests in Turkey (you'll recall the dragging of the faux-priest). Perhaps that is what Hades is referring to (but you can ask him). I suppose that we should not be reporting on such unpleasant events in case we disturb anyone's sensativities or any sense of "brotherhood" some foster.

CDTRF, is there something you wanna say? I could easily use Pms, but I didn't... The fact I wrote it in public means I have nothing to fear, nothing that my Turkish brothers (Hakan and Cid especially) aren't aware of... So, I hope you feel better now... :D :D :D

Dear Diginis,


Good Greek or any nation= Not spoiled or ruined, being positive or desirable in nature, not bad or poor, Of moral excellence, upright, Well-behaved, obedient, Socially correct, proper...


yes...good Greek or Good Turk...who will respect to others. Dont try to be tricky man,be honest,be generous,be real friend. No try to be a man who find secret ways to his actual way in a friendly environment. Who is not on the same streotype wagon with others while mentioning different things like crimes against Hellenics.

You know what I say.But it s hard to accept it. It is basic, I am not your woe,not an enemy, dont push me out of actual view. I am a normal man like you who want to see us in peace and happiness.


Due to my deep respect to our mods, I will not continue it.

be sure, noticed.



sincerely,
CDTRF

By the way, am one of the admins, in case you didn't notice... :D :D :D

Dear CleardayTR-Force,

I am sorry to reject your claim that there was a hidden agenda for using Greek in concerned posts. There is no hidden agenda in these posts. There is nothing in said posts that was not decided together. Here as always in other issues, our decisions reflect the unanimous affirmation including Greek and Turkish members of the mod-admin team.

Not words but deeds is a Turkish proverb. We underline deeds.

Clearday,

If you noticed, I have never attempted to hide my real identity, my political position, or my honest views on any subject matter. I will however express my position using the civility I expect of others. This is not a "tool" I use to "secretly" propagate my agenda, but rather an expectation I demand for conducting any sort of communication.

This is exactly why I am making an issue of these recent developments. I have no objection with curtailing off-topic subjects, discussions about religion, or the use of expletives. But are we to censor honest opinions for the sake of a "friendly environment"?

Dear Digenis,

I don't want to get involved in the discussion between you and Clearday, but I sincerely restate the fact that there is no censorship here, and that yes friendly reationships, which also include agreement on disagreement is an integral, indispensible rule here, if it's not written, it's not because there is no such a rule, but on the contrary this is one of the building substances of the forum, the spirit which was promoted from the very beginning after departure from WAFF.

Ok :)

ps agenda magenda tanimam hine yunanca yazarsalar Clearday kardeslen araya gireriz ;) :gangsta: **kizir the kabadayi*** :battered: :naughty:

Ok, since you noticed act like a grown up...

Digenis,

As I observed before, you get hooked up on words/expressions/sentences too much. Now you are hooked up on the "friendly environment" thing, repeating it in your posts over and over. That was only one of the factors in my list, maybe one with a smaller share in the overall picture. So, don't get hooked up on it, see the big picture.