Dear Friends,

I have worked a lot with my brother Lord and many other respected members to establish a decent forum; I have to thank most of you for your kind involvement in the making of this forum.

Latest developments, and especially banning Derkrieger without even a consultation with the mod-admin team, where Turkish members of the team sought and defended in each and every occurrence collective decisions on these kind of issues, are far heavier burdens for me to bear, and urged me to make a radical decision about my presence here at least in the capacity of an admin.

I have failed as an admin to provide a fair atmosphere, so I will decide what to do in a couple of days. I am very disappointed indeed. I am sorry Turkish friends I've embarrassed you. Shame on me. I must have listened to your views, tens of, hundreds of e-mail messages, and make as quick decisions as it was seen appropriate against Turkish forumers.

Sorry. I consider myself banned too for a week in protest of ban of Derkrieger, and will make my final decision and suggestions after "one-week vacation."

Best regards

Why was Derkrieger banned? I know he received a warning for using an expletive (as the rules dictate). I also recall that in the past there have been announcements regarding banning and the reasons behind them (I forget the Hellenic members name at the moment). Sticking to the forum rules at this point would probably be the only sensible thing to do.

I'm sorry that it comes to this. It would be very bad if we loose this good communication media between Turks and Greek. It is true that I percieve the actions of the moderators as the double standarts against the members (look at my signature to see what I do to avoid some people).

I'm sure other Turkish members will support Modus 100%. Anyway see you next week everybody.

Hmm i should have read this message first instead of other i have read and replied. Although i had decided similar decision earlier it was dear Hakan himself that had calmed me down. Now i will gladly join him in his vacation.. See ya all next monday..

One less forum to watch for me.

Kalinichta.

It seems that i failed too...

so my resignation as Admin,Is my next step.If this solves the situation i gladly resign....from Admin.
And hope that the Turkish Friends reconsider there theses,especially my brother in arms and comrade Modus...
I was to soft with my compatriot Pytheas,also i was hoping for the explanation and rehabilitaion of the theses from Chris CRTS towards Hakan...
With no doubt i was waiting to see some "Great" things going on in here...
But nothing happenend...
Pytheas didnt stoped to use "provocative Threads" ala WAFF...Indeed very clevered covered...But provocative and unessecary for the WCF
And Chris unfortune...didnt "spoke" to Modus about calling hem...Liar...a very respected friend....

I haid to resighn ...earlier...I haid to take desicions earlier...
so nobody failed...except...ME...

Maybe it isnt the right time to try to connect our both Nations...or at least having a channel of comunication in the propper way...
I hope the next genration will handle the situation better than us...
isolating fanatism...and stricked believes...and theackheaded brains...





Regards

EDIT

@Kiz

Instead of making the situation worst...Try to read what i wrote above.

Regards

Modus and Lord,

I hope you allow me to comment your decisions.



First of all, I have to say, that I truly acknowledge your decisions. They again emphasize the greatness of your characters, since you try to consider yourselves as the culprits of the conflict. The act of taking the full responsibility for your faults and even faults effectively done by others is indeed honorful.

Hence, I hope you really reconsider your decisions. View this conflict as a temporary one, that is to say as a challenge to advance the forum´s quality even more, simply by having the appropriate knowledge to deal better with problems.

We prevent mistakes by gaining experience and we gain experience by making mistakes. Therefore again, Lord and Modus, regard this conflict as a challenge which enables yourself to guide the forum better, in order to attain the greatest possible degree of quality.

I demand you to reconsider your decisions and to always have in mind that your decisions might affect the forum's future in a negative way.


Regards

OK, can someone show me a provocative post of mine?

I think I have explained everything with arguments. And my theses are pretty crystal clear. And I am at least honest, with no secret wishes in the back of my mind.

I am sure I am "protected" by the mods, cause I speak out the truth, the others do not dare to express, because obviously turks prefer to be treated with double standards and, yes, no offence, hypocricy.

You will never hear out of me "oh, how good are our neighbours, the turks, the genociders, the expantionists, the bullies, etc."

My catch: truth hurts? ACCEPT IT, CONFRONT IT AND CHANGE IT.

Pytheas you give too much credit to yourself. You are merely one of the catalysts of the problem, not the single cause of it.

Of course I feel as the scapegoat, but I am no whiner or coward.

Of course modus plays his tacticts very well.
He uses the ban of driekrieger to promote his goal to ban me too.
Does ANYONE disagrees that dierkrieger deserved a ban? My warning level was double increased because I called beleg "pathetic" because his genuinely provoking sayings, or laughing to Jedi because of his delussions.

<_<

Pytheus which truth ? Your limited fanatic view ?

Do you know whats the main problem of democracy ? That extremists can use it for their benefits...history shows it widely.

I prefere a "defencable" democracy before wrong tolerance which allows people like you to act freely.

But wait pytheus. I think our admins & mods (the greeks and the turks) will find a solution for you that fits.

End of transmission

Wow, what's happening. I can't follow. I read this thread yesterday with Modus Abi's explanation, but didn't understand it. My question is: DID Modus abi ban Derkrieger or did a mod do it without consulting the rest of the Mod-team?

Pytheas you are a whiner by being egocentric and relevating the issue only to yourself.

The issue at hand is the failure of the Administrative team to balance between the principles of the forum and the justifiable expectations of the members and subsequently the Administrators taking the resposibility for this.

You are neither a scapegoat nor the cause of the problem, like I said merely one of the catalysts.

Hmmm, a lot of negative posts come from Pytheas. Is it me or does the quality of negative posts reached another LOW LEVEL.
What bothers me the most about these posts isn't the content af the post, but rather the means of a single poster to aggravate the Turkish forumers.
If the content of these posts weren't meant to hurt the feelings of posters who are Muslims or Turkish, they wouldn't be post.
It seems that our friend Pytheas is on a Crusade on the Internet to make Turkish posters and Muslims angry and so make them post aggressive, insulting replies against the Greeks.
I will not paticipate in his goal to divide the Turks and the Greeks.
I call the ENTIRE mod team, Admins to BAN him, just ban him.
He does this also in the WAFF-froum with much more insulting threads, just take a peek there.
I know I shouldn't make a comment over his actions in that hellish forum but we should let the logic of just taking his actions in this forum as a standard on the sideline.
The problem of many Turkish posters lies with Pytheas.
How can the leaders of the forum ignore his actions anywhere else, it would be like the police saying that there jurisdiction doesn't reach there and so they have to let a criminal walk away.

First: UNBAN DerKrieger (the main issue)

Second: Find a fair solution for Pytheus (it mustn't be a ban even if it would be the best solution)

Modus, Lord, and mod team.

You guys are doing a good job. Mistakes can and will happen. A mistake, when found, can always be fixed. Don't be so hard on yourselves. Let's keep things on the go.

But abi that's just the problem Pytheas is the Catalyst to the Chain-Reaction. If we wan't to stop this Reaction we must go to the source.
And a lot of posters, even the Greek posters disagree with him on certain levels, but they are less likely to comment on his action because they would be regarded as traitors by some.

Look what I am saying here is a thorn in the Eye of some people but I can't pretend like there is nothing going on in the forum.
If some people noticed, there are less original REBEL ALLIANCE posters posting in the forum.(U-Boot is the easiest one who comes to my mind, etc..)

With REBEL ALLIANCE I mean the people who left WAFF to begin a NEW forum were we could speak freely, without hurting anybody and I must Stress on the" WITHOUT hurting or provocating" anybody.
But there are great posts in here, very great on the level of Greek-Turk relations, there are some openly hate posts, but the posts that bother me are not the openly hate pots, because these are dealt with quikly, but the posts wich have a underlying agenda from some people.
These people also post openly hatred in the WAFF and other forums.
How can I ignore this?
How can our leaders ignore this?
These are the questions this forum must ask, before we can move on.
Or... I fear this great place will go the same way as the despotic, tyrannical place what some people like to call WAFF.
A façade with great posters but without great content.

Ok, let's put things into an order...

1. Am apologising for banning Derkrieger, but the last two times we encountered ourselves he provoked me out of a scratch... If he asks for an apology for the heavy insults he addressed towards me, he is back the very next moment, and I personally promise from that time and on we'll ensure nobody will have to tolerate anything that endangers the smooth running of our place... Some weeks ago I crossed my sword with Beleg, we had some fancy exchange of adjectives, I didn't hold any hard feelings, I apologised to him and stated I really respect him no matter the incident that took place...

2. Modus is back online...

3. Pytheas gets the punishment he deserves, after admins and mods consult...

Any more additions???

PS. Based on everything Killa and Efeler said, I honestly believe we can cooperate well together and promise that shit like that won't happen again...

PS1. Derkrieger, I really want to have a conversation with you and find a commonly peaceful axle for discussion, believe it or not am a good guy... Here is my mail address

hades_WCF@yahoo.gr

Cid, you can give it to him if you like

Thanks

Lets continue discussing on this issue and wait till everyone is back before we apply any changes, aside the correction on the ban.

I will enshure Derkrieger get's your mail address Hades

+1 to Kizir

How could you possibly reach that conclusion? We have had MANY heated disagreements on this forum between Hellenes on political issues. As far as I can recall, Pythea was the only one that questioned anyone's loyalty (mine). Not that this carries any weight in the broader Hellenic society... labels such as "masonos", "praktoras", "tagmatasfalitis", etc. do not carry any bite.

If anything, there have been much wider political discussions on the Hellenic side than the Turkish one. So your conclusion does not stand.

Deal with it as you would if you in a classroom, in a coffee shop, or anywhere else where civility exists. You might find Pythea's comments about Turkey and Muslims offensive, but I also find MANY things Turks post here very offensive. You don't hear me crying about it or making it an issue.

You cannot have an honest exchange of ideas if you set such a "goal" (especially for issues between Hellas and Turkey). Are we all here to become virtual "friends" or are we here to learn and exchange ideas?

Stop reading the other forums! I don't so I have no prejudice against anyone based on behavior on other forums.

They have answered this. They will not act like the Gestapo by researching member statements throughout the Internet.

Can we stop with the comparisons already? It has been over a year that this forum is open, so the rest of you (including those that still post there) should move forward.

Instead of focusing on the positives this forum brings (like accurate and timely military/diplomatic/political information) some rather complain about a couple of "abrasive" members. Yes we have a few "abrasive" members, but so long as they follow the forum rules there is nothing that can be done to them (except ignore them if you'd like). Unless you want the mods to trully be despotic and ban people as they wish.

Digenis

You have questioned my entire post.
I could go on with quoting everything that you said and you would reply again and we could go on and on for many posts without consensus.
It's great that you don't agree with everything I feel.
But I must ask you: What is your solution to all of these problems?
Because many people feel like there are problems and I think many people agree that immediate action is needed.

I'm not the administration, but I have made suggestions in the past.

1) Clearly outline what the purpose of this forum is (in my opinion, exchange of military, economic, and political developments)
2) Do not allow ANY off-topic discussions except perhaps in the "Social Club".
3) Lock or Delete ANY thread by ANY member if it comes to the attention of the mods/admins that the exact same message is posted on another forum (by the same person).


Just implementing the above I think would solve most of the problems. I just checked into it, and many threads here are also present in other forums. Obviously over there the responses are simply insulting... no wonder some bring this attitude here.

Off-topic (like the cartoon, the "honor" killings, etc.) articles should not be allowed on the more formal/structured part of the forum. For example, the initial events with the cartoon were extremely off-topic. When anti-Hellenic protests were taking place in Turkey (using the cartoons as an excuse), that was relevant. Obviously the moderation team will need to make that judgement, which is why a clearly defined forum purpose/goal needs to be articulated.

Let me explain that I did not want to imply with this that the expectations of members and the principles of the forum are in breach. In fact the justifiable expectations of members and the principles of the forum are in harmony.

The problem is though that the expectations of members require pragmatic solutions, while the principles of the forum require systematic solutions.

And thus I wanted to imply that the administrative team failed to find a balance between systematic and pragmatic, by largely focussing on systematical solutions while giving no attention to the need for pragmatic approaches.

I agree with your points.
I thougt that your last point is in place, because there are a lot of places to post off-topic articles, but they aren't used enough.
The big problem with the forumers lies with number 3, because this is where some of the current problems are coming from.

ghostface,

I think we can all provide the administration enough constructive criticism and suggestions to make this place more functional. This is not the time for anyone to use harsh language or to attack the administration/moderation team. If they made mistakes, this forum is democratic enough where the membership can correct it. This forum is what we make of it.

I hope others can make suggestions, and not just demands to ban select members.

Mates, my 2 cents is this situation is that I am dissapointed to see this take a downward spiral so fast. I'm not saying anyone doesn't have the right to be upset, but we are all humans here and things will hit bumps once in a while.

My advice (for similar situation, not for actually rectifying this one) is for all of us to take a step back and re-analyse the situation. React methodicaly and with a clear mind, rather than instantly and from the instinct.

As far as correcting the current situation, I support Hades 3 points.

@ Pytheas

I hope you don't think that others have put a target on your head. You have done that all by yourself. No, you are not getting protection from anyone, the reason your still here is that you do the bear minimum to support your positions and push/stay within the rules. We can't ban you for that even if we want to. But you are on the razors edge, and if you don't fall off, you'll cut yourself so be carefull.

Till now it seems that we managed it very good. turks & greeks, mods/admins & normal folk ;)


I hope we can go the normal procedure like every day :)





„The same procedure as every year, James.“

In order to evaluate what "good" or "bad" a consensus of what "good" and what "bad" is has to be find. Upon this consensus, decisions can be made.

Problems concerning certain "behavorial laws" are that they often lack details and this deficiency of accuracy can lead to interpretations, misunderstandings and simply problems.

Since both the "shapers" and the executors of laws are human beings and human beings tend to show their humane character, that is to say interpreting and executing laws according to their perception and according to their "feelings" which are often based upon their ideology, problems are nothing else than natural ( in the most literal meaning of it).

Taking all this into consideration is oftentimes not easy and possible.


Therefore:

Q1. What is the intention of the forum ?

Q2. What are the best possible means to maintain the focus upon this intention ?

Q3. That is to say, what is "good" and what is "bad" ?



1. The forum is named "World Conflicts Forum". Although the following question appears obvious, it should be raised:

What does this "World" consist off ?


And what are "Conflicts" ? That is to say what kind of conflicts are these?
The "(then determined) Conflicts" of the "(then determined) World" should be debated, since this is the general purpose of a forum.


If as suggested the debate is about "military, economic and political developments", then these three parts should be examined.

What are military/economic/political developments ?


2/3. In which way should these (then determined) " selected options of discussion" be debated.

Or: What are legitimate means of discussion ? This is probably the most sensitive question.

Let's not go over to normal procedure, but instead please provide the amdinistrative team with feedback like Digenis and Ghostface provided. I believe these ideas are a positive development and could be developed and implemented by the administrative team in the future to prevend ackward situations like this weekend.

Just ban Pytheas and ANYONE like him,trust me this will solve most of the problem(I also agree early comments).Sometimes Turks post in an offensive manner and sometimes Greeks do it.Sometimes small exchanges happen between Turks and Greeks.Sometimes we use offensive language to our own compatriots.But problem is Ptyheas does it "systematically" insulting Muslim and Turks and up to now managed to stay within forum rules.We call this psychological warfare.One must be blind not to understand his intentions.It is clear that Mods/Admins (especially Modus) and harmony of this forum are/were main targets.

It is their decision now.If Modus and Lord resign no one can save this forum from destruction.Modus and Lord are symbols of harmony in the forum.Pytheas does a great job to take them out.I highly regard and respect that (i am fully honest)

Dear Modus,
I am not in your position and I dont know even 1% of what you know.For example What are you talking between Mods/Admins.But i know one think if you quit now this will mean a lot of things for you and us and consequences may be severe for all of us.I hope you will think about the points i made and reconsider your decision.

Indeed I do stay within the rules, but in no way I have insulted muslims or turks.

Sometimes I highlight undeniable realities, that, yes, may be insultive to some, but If you want, I can stop posting political related things for a while, to help you feel more comfortable...

My intentions are to discuss political and military stuff. Or to expose my beliefs and see the beliefs of the "other side" (sth not possible in the real world).

Hurting harmony of this forum was never "my intention", lol...
And I never aimed at Modus. Yes, I am a bit pissed of him for supporting Turkey's entrance in EU with (IMO) hollow arguments, but that's it. I would say though that in the contrary, I am the target of Modus, because he hates and the same time can not oppose my arguments.

:roflmao: Just laughable.

And this will be what you look like in near future if you continue like this

:bricks:

You are digging your own grave.You push limits too far.

Edit:Of course you have not insulted Muslim or Turks I mean you have "systematically" insulted Muslims and Turks and manage to stay within forum rules.

I advise someone in charge to add a rule about psychological warfare for those who has no job except to look for gaps in forum rules.

Pytheas,how old are you ? It seem's that you don't get the message
@modus
Please continiou the great effort you and Lord and the great Mod/Admin Team of WCF made so far.
Close your ears to the Sirenes,Cassnadres and to fanatism.

Hello again friends,

My weekly break is over, and I am happy to meet you all again. I have found a lot of time to think, gossip (LOL), and concentrate on the forum affairs. I'd like to thank all forumers, who have taken my reaction as a good opportunity for focussing on the well-being of the forum, and raised many issues and suggestions, which I think are valuable assets, for these will certainly be incorporated in the conduct of the forum. Last but not least, I'd like to thank the team, and my brother Lord, who despite his busy and some uncomfortable days due to the new born lady, and his father's illness, taken a manly attitude and I felt a great deal of honour, and appreciation for every second of our friendship. :thanks:

Now, I'd like to make clear some points. First, I will not resign for the fact that the number of positive messages I've received, which do not aim to save the day, or one's ass, but the forum as a whole were overhelming those focusing on individual feuds and vengeance. Most of the messages praised democracy, our most important asset here. Second, I am convinced that the difficulties we've been experiencing can be easily fixed by implementing the reform (restructuring) schema, which was introduced previously.

My reaction did not aim any individual, nor it was directly related to ban of Derkrieger, or not banning any other personae, rather it was aimed at to provoke a systemic discussion. I am very happy to see that a reconciliation effort has already been initiated, and two valuable persons to me, Hades and Derkrieger will certainly find a mature way to that end. As it is said in Casablanca, my favourite movie, I hope "This is the beginning of a beautiful friendship!"

I see that some minor issues are also raised by certain members. I always felt uncomfortable seeing egocentric people. This forum and its members do not deserve egocentricism, pedantry, and idiocy. This forum cannot serve as a kindergarten, not because we are ruthless people, but we do not have adequate training on how to handle childish behaviors. This does not make such behaviours a major issue, but rather a minor headache that can surely be cured with aspirin. The team members are mature enough to not to limit/express their feelings with such primitive concepts as love and hate. We're trying to do our best here, and we simply do not have time to develop certain feelings or attitudes to certain members. :damn:

One of the most important things I'd like to make clear is that the controversies or my reaction did not stem from a so-called Greek-Turkish dispute. There is no Greek-Turkish dispute here as to conduct of the forum, and there is a shared opinion that the team members are objective. There is, and there should be, debates, discussion, and even tensions with regard to political relations between our countries, but both the team and most of the members are mature enough to not to confuse things here. We have respect to each other. The controversies are exclusively due to the conduct of the forum, where we certainly need a new structure, as discussed and agreed in the team and introduced for review, and discussion by the members.

I am convinced that the new schema of the conduct of the forum will prevent from any controversies, and I kindly request all members provide their opinions.

I'd like to say a few words to my compatriots, who have taken a week-break after me. Ok, guys! The holiday is over. Please return back, and contribute in the forum. I did not contact anybody, or encourage, or impose to take my example, but your solidarity made me proud. Thank you. And I'd like to thank to Onur, who seriously conducted the role of a mediator, I hope one day we'll see him as an Ambassador.

It is 6:51 a.m. local time, and I will quit now before I felt asleep on the computer. :sleepy:

My best regards
I kiss you.
:thumbsup: