Is there any new info on this subject?

Everything is told and discussed and compared thousands of times. So I'm really curious what we're gonna do in thes forum. I think we have lack of subjects. :doubt:

Do someone know for which components Turkey become know-Transfer by the Sabra Projekt ?

-Sabra tank upgrade
-Domestic/K2 Tank development with Korea
-possible purchase of M1A abraham or LEO-II

I think its to much of money spending. IMHO we should rather focus on the domestic tank development with South-Korea. Possiblity of major ground war in Anadolu or Rumeli is currently very small. Non of our eastern neighbours have advanced tanks, so there is also no signifacant treath from there. So there is no need to buy the M1A's and LEO-II's. Also there is actually no need to for SABRA upgrade, we could use our older tanks in the east, or even better scrap a major part of it. The only reason to have the SABRA-upgrade, is to keep close realationship with Israël and the possibility of technology transfer.

IMHO we should focus on the domestic tank, in co-operation with the South-Koreans. We have very good relations with them, a joint development in the domestic/k2 tank would result in a fine product, just like the firtina.

170 M-60A1 MBTs will receive SABRA III upgrade and the project is to be completed in 2007. The upgrade program encompasses the following:

- New thermal imaging
- Elbit Knight-III fire control system (including stabilizer and ballistic computer),
- 120mm Merkawa-IV smoothbore cannon (with LAHAT guided ammunition) and fume extractor,
- automatic fire and explosion suppression system,
- Merkawa-IV add-on armor technology and explosive reactive armor (ERA),
- 1200 hp MTU (German) diesel engine and Renk transmission,
- full system modernization and integration capability,
- new improved Merkawa-IV tracks,
- RWR/IR warning system,
- NBC protection.

The remaining M60A1 and M60A3 tanks are likely to undergo the same upgrade process with more involvement of Turkish companies, upon completion of the upgrade of first 170 tanks but no formal decision has been taken yet in this regard.

The status of the Sabra III project is ongoing. The prototype was initially planned to be delivered by Israel in the first quarter of 2005, but I don't know whether this deadline will actually be met. It may turn out that we may receive the prototype in late-2005. Upon its receipt, the prototype will undergo several tests in the Turkish Army. Some modifications may be necessary if the Army is not satisfied with the test results. Only after that, work will commence for the other 169 tanks. Therefore, don't get too excited because the initial completion date of 2007 may be extended to 2008.

Skywalker: "Do someone know for which components Turkey become know-Transfer by the Sabra Projekt?"

If I'm not mistaken Turkish MKEK will receive the tech transfer for the 120mm Merkawa-IV smoothbore cannon. More importantly, my expectation is that we will receive the know-how for full system integration capability, rather than individual components. After all, we are already capable of producing our own fire control and thermal imaging systems as well as the ballistic computers, as can be seen in the Aselsan's Volkan upgrade for the Leo-I MBTs - see http://www.aselsan.com/msting/volkan_eng.htm .

However, there will certainly be no technology transfer for the Explosive Reactor Armor (ERA), as Israel refused to provide the tech transfer.

TURKEY MULLS M-60 UPGRADE CANCELLATION

ANKARA [MENL] -- Turkey has been quietly examining the prospect of revising or canceling its M-60 main battle tank upgrade with Israel.

Turkish industry and defense sources said the M-60 project could be delayed or suspended if Ankara wins German approval for the sale of between 250 and 350 Leopard-2A4 main battle tanks, produced by Krauss-Maffei Wegmann. They said Ankara and Bonn have entered the advanced stage of negotiations, and a Leopard-2 deal could be reached in early 2005 after the European Union summit, which would decide whether to grant Turkey a date for accession.

"If we get the Leopard-2 with technology, then the M-60 upgrade becomes redundant," a Turkish defense source said. "In any case, Turkey could not afford both projects."

The sources said the Defense Ministry's Defense Industries Undersecretariat has been discussing the future of the M-60 upgrade amid progress in Ankara's efforts to acquire the Leopard-2A4. They said the ministry unit, known by its Turkish acronym, SSM, has been drafting a series of options that would either significantly revise or cancel the M-60 project by mid-2005.
http://www.menewsline.com/stories/2005/january/01_05_2.html

You ve spent so much money to get israeli tech transfer and now you think of cancelling everything? :blink: Someone in your planning staff isn't doing well his work... The same happened with Eryx.You made a production line,signed the contract and after producing hundreds of launchers with over 1000 missiles you decided it wasn't good? Who's the bright guy who takes these decisions?

Although it might look like planning faillure, you can also see it as change in opportunities, formerly Germany did not sell tanks to Turkey so you take the second best, there is nothing wrong with making changes and adapt to new circumstances. It is better if it saves money and gives you the same. But another possibility is that the Sabra project became more expensive than initially calculated or our military has indeed banged their head on a failure project like the Eryx :wall:

MENL is not a reliable source and is credited with a number of speculative "news" in the past, so I would rather think twice before taking this report seriously. Besides there has not been so much news traffic about the Sabra project for a while.

It is true that Sabra project comes with tremendous cost, but this is because of the content of the project: It contains a number of tech-transfers.

It's assumed that Turkey wants to lead both modernization programmes at the same time: Leopard-1 (with the possible procurement of Leopard-II) and M-60. Current M-60 fleet (with minor upgrades) is somehow sufficient for the threat in the (South)Eastern Sector. With Sabra upgrade an interim solution will be obtained until the introduction of the new generation tank (Indigenous? Joint project with South Korea? Not clear for now). I must remind that M-60's proved to be highly effective against T-series of tanks in the 1st Gulf War (1991), the tanks which are still present in the region.

Eryx is another subject, and the reason for cancellation has net been 100% clarified. This AT missile has an impressive export success, but it is still not ver clear why Turkey did not love it..It was one of the best solutions at the time, and Turkey gained tandem warhead technology with the co-operation project. One thing is for sure that the concept for a very short range wire guided anti tank missile is no more..

Regards

Note: I must also add that the "timing" of the report is very interesting... By the moment Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul is on a tour in Israel for negotiations.. This is very similar to another news report took in MENL a few months ago. They reported that Turkey had cancelled all military projects with Israel, which was denied by officials. In the contrary Turkey plans to procure guided weapons from Israel...

If i well remember the official reply of your army was that the Eryx proved to have poor ability to find its target,right?

As for the tanks,i don't know.I think in any projecxt there is a point,after which you can't go back.I mean,you want to make Sabra?Ok,study all costs,see what's on the contract,evaluate a prototype.If you see something is going wrong,stop there.But once you start signing contracts,building facilities to make the Sabra etc,stopping in the middle (which i suppose will also mean extra financial penalty to pay to the Israelis for unilaterally braking the contract with no reason) ,because cheaper tanks came out...I mean,you could delay buying the Leo2s or make the 170 M-60 in Sabra as planned and don't proceed to the rest of M-60 fleet (retire them like we did and use them for spare parts) and proceed to fill the gaps with Leo2A4.

Anyway,it might be all a hoax.

Dear U-Boot,

Cancellation of the M-60 / SABRA upgrade project is the claim of MENL, which I think is a disinformation attempt (because of political purposes). As far as I know, there is no official report / declaration or an unofficial news / report about a possible cancellation.

A for the Erx issue, Undersecretariat for Defense Industries announced that the performance of the guidance system was poor and France failed to meet her obligations placed in the contract. But the reasons (especially the one with the guiadance system) are not satisfactorily explained.

Regards

Thanks.

The MENL news turned out to be correct. As I said earlier under this thread, the deadline for the delivery of the prototype was early-2005. It is now understood that Israelis are nowhere near completing the production of the prototype. Therefore, the Undersecretariat of Defence Industries (SSM) of Turkey SUSPENDED (but not CANCELLED) the project! I think this is a political decision and what will happen will pretty much depend upon the negotiations on Leopard IIA4 MBTs. Turkey may end up receiving min. 246 or max. 350 LeoIIA4s, with absolutely NO technology transfer.

The earlier news regarding the suspension of the Sabra 3 project was today ruled out by the Turkish General Staff.

According to the official statement of the General Staff HQ, there exists a 5-month delay in the project due to technical reasons, but it is not true that the project was cancelled or suspended. It was added that the Turkish Undersecretariat of Defence Industries was planned to revise and confirm the agreement with the Israel Military Industries within this month and that the project is very important and ongoing.

In that case we should expect the prototype in the last quarter of 2005, I suppose.

Orko was right... The news by MENL was a disinformation attempt for political purposes. The news also coincided with the visit of our FM to the Middle East.


********************
http://www.haberx.com

Genelkurmay Başkanlığı, M 60 A1 tanklarının modernizasyonu projesinde bazı teknik sorunlardan dolayı 5 aylık bir gecikme yaşandığını belirterek, Savunma Sanayii Müsteşarlığı'nın bu ay içinde IMI firması ile yapılacak görüşmelerde bu durumu "bir mutabakat muhtırası ile revize etmesinin planlandığı" bildirildi.

- Açıklamada, projenin içinde bulunulan aşamada durdurulmasının söz konusu olmadığı kaydedildi.
Genelkurmay Başkanlığı'ndan yapılan açıklamada, "M 60 Tank Modernizasyonu Projesi" ile Kara Kuvvetleri Komutanlığı envanterindeki M 60 tanklarının ateş gücü ve beka yeteneğinin, Türkiye'nin dışa bağımlılığını asgariye indirecek ve maliyet-etkin bir model ile geliştirilmesinin hedeflendiği belirtilerek, projenin bu yönüyle de ayrı bir önem taşıdığı vurgulandı.
Açıklamada, şöyle denildi:
"Proje ile, MKEK, ASELSAN ve 2'nci Ana Bakım Merkez Komutanlığı'na (ABMK) çeşitli konularda teknolojik kabiliyet kazandırılması öngörülmüştür. Proje çerçevesinde, bir prototip tank İsrail'de; geri kalan tanklar 2'nci Ana Bakım Merkez Komutanlığı'nda modernize edilecektir. Bu doğrultuda, halihazırda, IMI firması tarafından prototip üretim çalışmaları; Savunma Sanayii Müsteşarlığı tarafından da Türkiye'de gerçekleştirilecek kısım için alt yapı çalışmaları devam etmektedir

Projede, bazı teknik sorunlardan dolayı 5 aylık gecikme bulunmaktadır. Bu durum SSM.lığınca takip edilmekte ve Ocak 2005 içerisinde IMI firması ile yapılacak görüşmeler neticesinde bir mutabakat muhtırası ile revize edilmesi planlanmaktadır. Ancak; projenin içinde bulunulan aşamada durdurulması söz konusu değildir.

I thought that you needed the Israeli technology for the homemade tank.So if you don't have the money for both programs how on earth are you going to finance the development of your own tank. :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure:

Lets face it,the home made tank story was just a mixture between propaganda and a joke.It was made up to give everyone a good laugh. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

AND IT DID.Well its time that you get back to reality,work hard to make Turkey a better country so that you can get in the E.U in 30-40 years.

I have some questions about this upgrade.
We had 2 other options for this upgrade a Jordanian and an American.

The American:

M60-2000 / 120S Main Battle Tank

[QUOTE]The General Dynamics 120S is an upgrade of the M60 tank. The 120 in the designation represents the 120mm smoothbore gun and the S stands for speed and survivability. The M60 part of the earlier M60-2000 designation is no longer considered relevant as so much of the MBT is new.

The 120S is a unique product that integrates the M1A1 120-mm turret, equipped with a 240X4 Forward Looking Infrared Radar (FLIR), onto a fully modernized M60 chassis. The survivability of the 120S is unmatched. The turret is protected with the latest armor, which was successfully demonstrated to the Turkish Main Battle Tank Committee. Additionally, the 120-mm ammunition is fully compartmentalized, providing optimum system survivability as demonstrated in the 1991 Gulf War.

The 120S chassis includes an M1A1 suspension system, giving the tank greatly improved cross-country mobility and a stable base for fire-on-the-move accuracy similar to the Abrams tank. The new 120S is fully functional, ready to accept a powerpack of the customer’s choice. To achieve mobility similar to an M1A2 Abrams tank, a 1200-horsepower AVDS-1790 engine is recommended. The upgraded AVDS-1790-9A 1200HP diesel is similar to that used on the M88A2 and Merkava vehicles. The engine is mated to M1 Allison X-1100-5 transmission and Abrams final drives. However, other propulsion options are also possible.

The 120S offers a proven and affordable M60 upgrade solution to potential customers. The 120S makes existing M60 fleets relevant by increasing their capability to close to that of the M1A1 Abrams tank’s performance, at half the price. Also of significance is the fact that the 120S upgrade components are in production with logistical and operational support readily available through the U.S. Army and U.S. Marine Corps. The 120S offers a pragmatic approach to potential customers. It’s commonality with the Abrams tank family of vehicles easily offers future growth opportunities to evolve into a new main battle tank program.

General Dynamics Land Systems (GDLS) developed the new version of the M60, the M60-2000, for export. The M60-2000 MBT has been marketed for several years and a number of countries in NATO and the Middle East were briefed on the vehicle. Following customer feedback, detailed engineering work was carried out and in December 2000 GDLS decided to build a functional prototype.

The first potential customer is Turkey. Gneral Dynamics Land Systems has offered to build a prototype of its proposed M60-2000 upgrade of the M60A3 main battle tank to be evaluated by Egypt. The Egyptian Army is considering this offer.

On 27 September 2001, General Dynamics introduced its 120S Main Battle Tank during the opening ceremonies at IDEF 2001 in Ankara, Turkey. General Dynamics Land Systems rolled out a fully functional prototype of its 120S main battle tank (MBT) at its Detroit facility in early August 2001.

General Dynamics engineering shop produced a first phase prototype vehicle. It had a M1A1 functional turret and suspension system with the M1 gear box, hydraulic pump and M1A1 slip ring. The hull has adapters fitted so the M1A1 rotary shock absorbers, torsions bars and T-158 track can be used. Hull sides had M1A1-like sponsons and ballistic side skirts. [/QUOTE]

The Sabra:

Sabra Main Battle Tank

SABRA MAIN BATTLE TANK, ISRAEL

[/QUOTE]SABRA MAIN BATTLE TANK, ISRAEL
The Sabra Main Battle Tank is a modernised upgraded M60A3, developed by Israel Military Industries Slavin heavy weapons plant at Ramat Hasharon. As with all upgrade programs the scope of a Sabra upgrade package is customised to meet a particular country's operational requirements. 170 Turkish Army M60 tanks are to be upgraded with the Sabra Mk II package. The first protype is planned for delivery in 2006.

ARMAMENT

The Sabra's main armament is a 120mm smooth bore gun which is similar to the gun developed by Israel Military Industries (formerly TAAS) for the Merkava Mark 3 main battle tank. The gun is fitted with a fume extractor and a thermal sleeve for reduction of wear and to maximise the first round hit probability by reducing thermally induced distortion of the barrel. Stowage is provided for 42 rounds of ammunition. The gun has greater range and armour penetrating capability than the 105mm gun installed on the M60 MBT. The gun is capable of firing NATO standard 120mm smooth bore ammunition including Armour Piercing Fin-Stabilised Discarding Sabot (APFSDS) rounds.

The co-axial machine gun is either 7.62mm or 5.56mm. The 60mm mortar system is supplied by Soltam Ltd based in Haifa.

PROTECTION

The Sabra is equipped with an automatic fire and explosion suppression system, a threat warning system and smoke grenade launchers. The tank is fitted with modular passive armour protection, which is upgraded to explosive reactive armour in the Sabra Mk II.

FIRE CONTROL AND OBSERVATION

The hybrid turret and gun control system consists of an hydraulic elevation drive and an electric traverse drive. The tank is equipped with a Knight computerised fire control system supplied by El-Op (Electro-Optics) Industries Ltd of Rehovot and and Elbit Systems of Haifa. The fire control system is integrated into the turret control and actively controls the turret dynamics. The line of sight stabilisation in elevation and azimuth provides high hit probability for stationary and on the move engagements against stationary and moving targets. The system has four modes of operation : stabilised mode with the gun axis slaved to the line of sight, slaved mode where the gunner's line of sight is slaved to the gun axis, a non stabilised mode and back-up mode with manual operation for emergency use.

The gun can be layed and fired by the gunner or the commander. The gunner's station is equipped with a periscopic x8 magnification day sight and x5.3 magnification night sight supplied by El-Op. The sight is stabilised in two axes. The eyesafe Nd:YAG laser rangefinder operates over a range typically 200m to 9,995m with an accuracy of +/- 5m.

PROPULSION

The Sabra engine is the air-cooled AVDS-1790-5A four stroke diesel engine by General Dynamics, developing 908hp at 2,400rpm, which represents a gross power to combat weight ratio of 16.5hp/t.

The running gear has been upgraded for cross country mobility and features six road wheels per side, trailing arm suspension, torsion bar springs, piston dampers, three per side piston bumpers and single pin steel tracks.

The Sabra provides a maximum road speed of 48km/h and accelerates from 0km/h to 32km/h in 9.6 seconds. The range on hard level ground is 450km. The tank can negotiate slopes of gradient 60%, side slopes 30%, 2.60m trenches, and 0.91m obstacle height. The fording depth without preparation is 1.40m and with preparation 2.40m.[QUOTE]



What do you guys think? Wich one is better?
The American or the Sabra?

TOO low

Nice summary ghost

Is this the General Dynamics 120S, looks similar to the M1A2 Abraham



The General Dynamics 120S has FLIR, coudnt find it with the SABRA, so thats a plus. However:

This suggests that the engine upgrade isnt part of the deal. However with the SABRA upgrade it is, right? So thats a plus for the SABRA.

Ghost do you have info on the Jordanian upgrade?

Sabra! The Amerikan option is not a modernitation. You buy the whole turet to put it to an old chassis? :damn:
Why don't just buy the whole Abrams?

Jordan(financed) Upgrade will be done in several phases. First phase for 50 tanks, will be completed by US company Raytheon...Raytheon installed new 2nd generation sight and fire control systems...Similar to Aselsan VOLKAN system...Second phase will be done by a Swiss firm, new turret with 120mm gun wil be used developed by Swiss firm...and it sucks!!!....There is no engine upgrade option...M-60 upgrade without engine replacement will not pay of on the long run...Some people seem to believe Jordan designed and implemented whole M-60 upgrade which is WRONG... :baeh:

General Dynamics M-60-120 option was really good option for Turkey but GD did not offered full tech transfer of 120mm gun and M-1A1 turrets(or armour) were supposed produced in USA and send to Turkey...GD offer was around 2.5 million dollars...It did not include engine replacement but some engine refurbisment which is not an ideal solution for an expensive upgrade...And it comes with conditions attached about use of tanks...

Israil IMI offered based on their experience on their IDF M-60 upgrade. Only country actually full upgraded M-60 fleet in the world is Israil. SABRA proposal looked atractive to Turkey because they do NOT attach conditions to weapons they sell, not like USA or Germany and Israil gives technology that other countries do not give...SABRA upgrade focused on all three fields of a modern tank that needs: Mobility, Survibility, Fire Power....MTU 1000HP engine will be used(or maybe switch to 1200HP MTU engine), reactive armour plates to cover turret and armours on the side skirts, 120mm gun and new Knight-III fire control system will be used...This system uses 2nd generation FLIR also. Part of the deal, 120mm gun and ammunition license is given free of charge...

Look at F-4E/2020 project. Turkey learn much more technology and know-how in F-4E Terminator project than whole F-16 production in TAI...Look at the ATAK-II project..US Companies are worried about the bidding process because Turkey's conditions look hard and difficult for them...Turkey wants export license to be granted when the company bids for the project. US Law prevents cocmpanies to give such letters to buyers until a US company wins the bid and if State Department and Pentagon approves the deal...You can imagine a senario that Boeing AH-64D will win, then US Department of State will say no, you can not give Turks those you are agreed on the contract...Then what will happen? renagotiate the contract? The US export law sucks and punishes countries like Turkey...It happened in SPEWS-II for Block-50 EW suite project...Original producer BAE Systems of North America signed a contract with SSM. Then SSM waited BAE systems to get approval froom US department of State and Pentagon...Then Pentagoon said hey BAE systems you gave too much promisses to Turks on this contract...You can NOT transfer the following things becuase it is US security concerns...But BAE systems already agreed on those conditions written in the contract...SSM and TuAF forced to reconsider the whole contract...But eventually, there was no other option for SSM for Block-50EW suite and they agreed on it.

So in the end SABRA upgrade is much better.

Robust, perhaps this is dicused but how much are the total costs of a SABRA upgrade?

Also I believe there were some political reasons involved. There were 2 main tank projects underway during the late 90's. The M60 modernization, and the Tank-2000 ATAM project. Obviously the latter was the lions share with a projected cost of up to $10 billion assuming 1000 tanks were ordered. Since the wonderful Germans decided to pull out of the competition it seemed the way was paved for the US and M1A2 to win the order. To eliminate further competition, it is believed the Israelis were "allowed" to win the M60 modernization project instead and, in return, not contend for the Tank-2000 (if you notice Merkava was absent). Basically, Israel would take the small portion while Uncle Sam the bigger piece of the pie... However when our economic problems forced the cancellation of the "big portion" Tank-2000... well, it seems the US was left with egg on their faces :wall: while the Israelis ended up taking their share... :bootyshake:

Just to get confusion straight, the M60-Sabra costs $4.4mln a piece, somewhere (english language Israeli paper) I read the Merkava III was costing $3.2 mln .

Now I am not a SSM expert familiar with military purchases, but the little devil on my left shoulder tells me someone really got screwed here. :mgun:

Are you shure about the numbers Nuutk: where did you get the info about the price of the Merkava III.
Isnt there a possibility to get the Merkava III instead the SABRA. Why would we pay so much if there is a cheaper superiour tank in the market. Do we reallly want to upgrade the M60 that badly.

Your little devil is wrong dear Nutuk..

You cannot just compare market prices with modernisation costs, they are two completely different subjects. SABRA programme of TAF consists of technology transfer, infrastructure build-up, R&D process etc.. This content made the total cost of the project rise.

Robust has excellently explained the content of the SABRA project in particular and modernisation projects in general, I humbly recommend you to read it carefully.

And I am afraid we are fooling ourself, what technology transfer?????

Technology to build what, armor??

And where are the tanks, we still don't possess any Sabra after all these years. Greece is getting with the same money hundreds of Leo2A6, hundreds of Leo 2A4 and hundreds of Leo 1's.

It's difficult to spit it out, but my little devil has a point.

As Ozge Kilinc wrote in Turkish Defence, SABRA project consists of following:

- 120 mm main gun
- Improved ballistic protection, modular armor
- 1200 HP MTU engine
- Improved protection of turret against top attack missiles
- Improved tracks which are also being used by Merkava series of tanks
- Meteorological sensor
- Structural modernisation
- Knight-III

Turkey will get experience and know-how on application and integraiton of these systems with the SABRA project. This is a mandatory step for local tank development. Systems integration and sub-system development capabilites must be improved in order to bring them together and later design a brand new system. Defence industry is a field where steps are / can be -naturally- very slow. There were delays in the SABRA project and the company paid penalty for the delay, if I recall correctly. You cannot juzt compare the price of a brand new tank and the unit cost of a SABRA and then say "why don't we just buy this?". Something must be done in order to get self-sufficient in defence industry, this "something" is not cheap at all.

- 120 mm main gun
- Improved ballistic protection, modular armor
- 1200 HP MTU engine
- Improved protection of turret against top attack missiles
- Improved tracks which are also being used by Merkava series of tanks
- Meteorological sensor
- Structural modernisation
- Knight-III

A lott of technology, they better develop some domestic Tank are all those euro's were spend for nothing.

On the domestic tank, are going to co-produce it with the South-Koreans or what? And will the domestic tank become the Main Battle Tank for the TKK? Any info.

I don't know Orko_8, I am very sceptical on the whole Sabra deal, it doesn't bring the desired. Look if the Sabra deal was like the Firtina which IMO is really :thumbsup: I would have faith in it.

If we want to produce our own tank then I think something like the Sabra is more than unnecesarry, did South Afrika need a Sabra, did Brasil? Those who seriously pursue the building of a national tank walk a lot more smart ways.

I dunno, I guess I'm very dissapointed with the Sabra that I only see the negatives of it.

When will we receive those damn Sabra's does anyone know, what is the timetable?

I have objections to the above points laid out in the first message of Ghostface. The corrections should be considered as follows.

1. 170 Turkish Army M60 tanks are to be upgraded with the Sabra Mk III package. Unlike Mk II, Mk III does not exist yet. That's why we are talking about a prototype here. If it were a Mk II, what is the need for a prototype as it is already in use in the IDF?

2. The gun is capable of firing NATO standard 120mm smooth bore ammunition including Armour Piercing Fin-Stabilised Discarding Sabot (APFSDS) rounds. Yes, but they seem to forget something: The LAHAT guided ammunition.

LAHAT


3. The Sabra engine is the air-cooled German MTU diesel engine developing 1200hp which represents a gross power to combat weight ratio of 21.5hp/t.

4. The Sabra provides a maximum road speed of greater than 48km/h (I don't know exactly what!), since it will have a more powerful engine.

Now, regarding why we haven't purchased Merkawa III instead. The answer is simple. The US pressurred Israel to stay away from Turkey's MBT tender, thinking that the M1A2 could be the winner and Merkawa's participation could decrease their chances. In exchange, they allowed Israel to go ahead with the Sabra III upgrade. It was an ugly and forceful deal.

Timetable: As I already explained in http://s7.invisionfree.com/worldconflictsf...hp?showtopic=40 and due to the unforeseen delays, we will hopefully receive the prototype in the last quarter of 2005. Upon its receipt, the prototype will undergo several tests in the Turkish Army. Some modifications may be necessary if the Army is not satisfied with the test results. Only after that, work will commence for the other 169 tanks. Therefore, the completion date (not the delivery of the first tank, but the completion of all 170 units) may be extended to 2008.

The technologies required to manufacture a battle tank are not cheap to acquire, and not easy to develop from scratch. Especially The Armor Technology and the Main Gun (even Americans are using German guns on M1A2s if I'm not mistaken. Using DU Rounds on L55 gun leads to the highest firepower achievable in today's market.). With Fire control systems and sensors, Turkey has , thank god, some experience, and I think, with some foreign assistance, Turkey can pull it off herself. The engines, well I think german MTU engines is the only way to go.

Now we have isolated the two critical tank components turkey has no experience in manufacturing: Armor and main Gun.

Let's look at the Nations who design/manufacture their own tank guns and armor: You can buy the State of art technology either from Europe or USA or Israel. I wouldn't go russian, and about china: forget it.

Americans would never sell their state of the art technologies. With Europe, there are the obvious political problems. Who remains? Israel. It's as simple as that. And they are very eager to sell their know how for the right price. (Remember the Lavi and Phalcon deals with China)

Buying the best weapon system that exists (read: Leo2A6) may look like the best solution, but in case of a battletank, it is problematic in the long run, especially for a Country like Turkey. So If Turkey has to pay a price to acquire necessary know how, so be it.

Dear Nutuk,

Greece is not getting Leo-2A6's for free...1.7 billion euro is a lot of money just for 170 tanks...Leo-1's comes almost free as an off-set for the Leo-2a6 deal but keep in mind that transfer of used tanks or any other miltary equipment, ALWAYS benefits the original producer, in this case Germany...Reason? How long can you use these tanks without spending money on them? At some point, you need to maintain these tanks, engines, computers, termal sight systems, everything needs testing, replacements and upgrades...Who will earn money? Greek companies or German companies?What do you think? At the end, a German company will be invited and perform the work, some local off-set deals to Greek Companies...Example, Greece will have considerable amount of Leo-1A5 in the inventory but Leo-1A5's termal sight and fire control system are first generation system that they would be needing a 2nd generation system in the future if Greece wants to keep them in the service for long time...I bet a German Company will perform the work and make money out of it...I dont know if there is company like Aselsan in Greece to develop a system similar to Volkan and perform on Leo-1A5? As you see buying used equipment "free of charge" will only be good if you have technology that can be used to maintain and upgrade these systems...If your country is depended on outside help to upgrade or maintain these weapons, these systems should be considered white elephants, they always eat your budget and makes someone else happy...

In this respect, what Turkey is trying to do with SABRA-III and Aselsan Leo-1a1A4 Volkan projects, (or Tank-2000)clear indications that Turkish Army will not eat the bait proposed by USA or Germany...SABRA project was under critisisim from some people in Turkey, mostly not experts on the matters, and some of them for political reasons. Using the name "Israel" is enough to scare some people in Turkey...From technical point of view, the cost of the project is not that expensive if you considered what will be done...SABRA-III is not a limited upgrade, but as I wrote before M-60 will be imporved in three fields: fire power, mobility, survability. The cost is 668 million dollars for upgradding 170 M-60A1 tanks to SABRA-III...Aselsan Volkan project only covers Fire Control system for 160 Leo-1A1A4 tanks, the total cost is 162 million dollars, almost 1 million dollars per tank...There is no 120mm gun, no engine/transmision change, no add on armour...Only system that is upgraded or installed on Leo-1A1A4 is Volkan Tank Fire control system for 1 millon dollars a piece...I am not saying Volkan is too expensive....This is the way it is...

SABRA project is much more than a new Fire Control system...New MTU Engine/Transmssion, 120mm gun/ammunition license, new suspention system, reactive armours, and other new things, brings the cost per unit to 3.9 millon dollars...And this cost will be even decreased in the future if Turkey continues to upgrade remaining M-60s...A decent brand new Tank will cost more than 3.9 million, I say 2x3.9 million will be the cost of a new tank....Turkish army can not replace current inventory of 3500 tanks with all new tanks...Optimum solution: produce some new tanks, maybe 750-1000, and upgrade remaining 900 M-60 and 350s Leo-1 tanks to give them a new life and performance that comparable to 3. generation tanks...

Dont forget, the future Tank-2000 proposal will depend on what Turkey can produce in Turkey...Turkey definetely can produce sub systems used in Tanks but putting all of those in a new tank design needs EXPERIENCE and Know-How...We will learn some of these from SABRA...

Thank you Robust for your long post,

I don't know where you get the figure 3.9 million (euro perhaps?), in the latest edition of S&H magazine it is stated that the unit costs of one Sabra is $4.4mln.

It is true I am not an expert on such upgrades but my job is technology related and I am sure it's a hell of a lot money for the 30 year old antique M60 that every decent army in the world phrases out. In fact I am very sceptical that there can be found other countries than Turkey who will spent such amounts on 30 year old tanks.

Technology transfer you say and I am asking didn't we make almost the same level technology transfers for the Firtina, the Firtina is full productional with much much less money, any idea when the SabraIII gets full productional?

The picture you showed is the American upgrade.

And, no I haven't found anything regarding this Jordanian upgrade.

If you check out the currency rates, you will see that 3,9mln. Euros is $4.4mln.

How is actually with the tank2000 project, so its suspended, are we gonna co-op with the South-Koreans on the K2 or are going nearly full domestic when we pick up the project.

Greece already operates large numbers of Leo1's and already has in place local facilities for any of the leo1 tank needs.

ELBO has considerable experience in armor upgrades, like the MOLF upgrade performed on the M48's.


After the renegotiation, the 1.7 b $ includes the 170 tanks, another 200+ Leo2A4 and about 500+ leo1 A5.

Plus a great number of specialised tank armor chasis based vehicles, like ARV and bridge layers, mine clearers etc.

I highly doubt that any future tank upgrade will be done by any german company but will be done by ELBO.

all in all, that 1,7 bil $ deal gave greece almost 1000 modern and modern-ish tanks.

I don't think that the Molf upgrade programe enhanced armour on the M-48.I think it was about installing the fire-control of the Leo-1 A5 systems.It gave the M-48s the capability to fire in motion(stabilization of the gun) and to operate at night.I don't remember any stucture modification. Maybe someone else can help out?

What I meant is designing an indegious fire control and sight system that will bring Leo-1A5 up to Leo-2 standards...MOLF uses 1st generation Termanl sight system and originally designed by a German company...

Leo 1A5 is the closest you can get to a Leo2! They were upgraded to match the Leo2 electronic.

But the Canadians have a better Leo I upgrade, with a 120 mm. gun.