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Title: "Sea Day" NATO Exarcise IN Greece


GREEK-AIRBORNE - June 10, 2005 12:37 AM (GMT)
In 21st of May in the Cretikon Pelagos ( the sea North of Crete) a NATO Naval Exercise took place , with the participation of Ships from Greece, USA, Germany Great Britain, Turkey, Spain, Neatherlands, and Italy. During the Exercise the Turkish Frigate "TCG Gaziantep" (F-490) made a major ambarasment for the Turkish Navy. The "TCG Gaziantep" was the leader of the formation of the Ships. It was a quite simple formation that all the ships was the one behind the other. In this case the leading Ship arrange the corse of the entire formation. Unfortunatelly the Captain of "Gaziantep" didn't manage to keep the ship in a direction and made manuevers who really destroyed the all formation.
The Turkish Ship was supposed to host all the Greeks and Foreighns Reporters , but after that NATO decided that the Reporters should be host in the Greek Frigate "Themistoklis"
:unsure:

cameleon1975 - June 10, 2005 05:56 AM (GMT)
LOL! :lol: Welcome to the forum Greek-Airborne!Where did you read this about the exercise?

Kiziroglu - June 10, 2005 09:54 AM (GMT)
We discussed in other forums about that "incident" which never happenend.

GREEK-AIRBORNE - June 10, 2005 10:26 AM (GMT)
There is a full report about the exercise and the incident in the "Defence & Diplomacy" magagine (AMYNA KAI DIPLOMATIA) June 2005. Also there is a report on the "Defence Issues" magazine (AMYNTIKA THEMATA) June 2005.

QUOTE
...the incident tha never happened

LOL!! :lol: :lol: Ok! Ok! Never hapened!! How could it hapened to the most powerfull Navy of the World (Turk Deniz Kuvvetleri)!! :damn:
But then what happened and NATO chance the decision abut what ship will host the Reporters? unless....
This didn't happened eather!!!
:attention:

Kiziroglu - June 10, 2005 11:35 AM (GMT)
Your posts directly shows in which category you fall....

Where did i make propaganda etc. for the Turkish Navy? Where did i write that it is superior to others ? You must blind or just a person with a huge imagination....

1. There is no news about this on the side of the Turkish Navy nor at the one of the General Staff

2. There was no article in the turkish newspapers/magazines (there is the possibility that i missed it)

[I think the turkish press is objective enough to write about such things]

3. The only "source" i shortly see was on at "yahoo" where they just mention that the ship Gaziantep take part at the exercise but nothing about the "failure". The funny point is that they even wrote the name of the ship wrong in the "article"

4. You will find sometimes posts of greeks members about articles in SOME greek magazines/newspapers which print wrong articles (dome turkish ones of course do the same). So where we have the security that the sources are right ? Did i read one of them ? I have no information about their reputation...and all the points about bring me to the result that is more unlikey what your wrote.

Btw. there could be other reason why they changed the ship for the press etc.... and even about that we have no true source....or do we ?

EDIT BY PICARD: Kizir, when you respond to a certain person's allegations, please leave other people out of the discussion and just concentrate on that certain person. I had to delete a part of your message.

Picard - June 10, 2005 11:53 AM (GMT)
Needless to say there is nothing in the NATO sources either. So yes, it never happened. Unless you provide a reliable source of course. :lol:

GREEK-AIRBORNE - June 10, 2005 12:18 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Kiziroglu @ Jun 10 2005, 01:35 PM)
Your posts directly shows in which category you fall....

Where did i make propaganda etc. for the Turkish Navy? Where did i write that it is superior to others ? You must blind or just a person with a huge imagination....

1. There is no news about this on the side of the Turkish Navy nor at the one of the General Staff

2. There was no article in the turkish newspapers/magazines (there is the possibility that i missed it)

[I think the turkish press is objective enough to write about such things]

3. The only "source" i shortly see was on at "yahoo" where they just mention that the ship Gaziantep take part at the exercise but nothing about the "failure". The funny point is that they even wrote the name of the ship wrong in the "article"

4. You will find sometimes posts of greeks members about articles in SOME greek magazines/newspapers which print wrong articles (dome turkish ones of course do the same). So where we have the security that the sources are right ? Did i read one of them ? I have no information about their reputation...and all the points about bring me to the result that is more unlikey what your wrote.

Btw. there could be other reason why they changed the ship for the press etc.... and even about that we have no true source....or do we ?

EDIT BY PICARD: Kizir, when you respond to a certain person's allegations, please leave other people out of the discussion and just concentrate on that certain person. I had to delete a part of your message.

Ok ok! Relax my Friend. If you don't want to believe it, simply don't believe it, But just because something is not written in a Turkish Media doesn't mean that "it never happened"
QUOTE
Din't find anything in the Turkish Navy Site

:lol: That was very funny. Ofcourse it is not Written in the Turkish Navy Site, it would be verry dummy if it was, and ofcourse the Turkish Officer's are not so silly to report it, The same think whould do the Greek Navy and all the Navy's of the World
You don't writte "Look we made something stupid!!"
As for the NATO is very naturall. Just imagine NATO reporting that one of NATO ship made such a mistake!! It would'nt be a very good advertisment for NATO don't you thing?
Anyway we are humans and we make mistakes, So the Turkish Captain made a mistake. That doesn't mean that all Turkish Captain's are like him...
So relax, you do have a good Navy, but mistakes happen :hathello:

Efeler - June 10, 2005 12:20 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
In this case the leading Ship arrange the corse of the entire formation. Unfortunatelly the Captain of "Gaziantep" didn't manage to keep the ship in a direction and made manuevers who really destroyed the all formation.


If they couldn't keep up that's their problem! :lol:

However I recall the incident around 1999. During the yearly SeaWolf live fire exercises the decommissioned TCG Berk destroyer was sunk as a target. The exercise was in the Mediterranean and the explosion was so loud it startled residents of Rhodes. The Greek newspapers immediately reported that we torpedoed our own ship by accident and 7 sailors died :gang beat: It was so hilariously absurd I actually cut out the article and saved it. I figure it was another attempt at malicous misinformation to try and make the enemy look inferior (especially to the Rhodean population that had just been scared out of their wits). This is a common propaganda trick used since WW2 in which, it seems, Greece has still not shaken off...


Pytheas - June 10, 2005 12:26 PM (GMT)
The whole article from the "Amyna kai Diplomatia" magazine:

Σελίδα 1
Σελίδα 2
Σελίδα 3
Σελίδα 4
Σελίδα 5
Σελίδα 6
(h selida 17 pou leipei eixe diafimisi...)

It clearly says that the turks messed the whole exercise formation.
Personally, I want to believe them, and I deeply do. Besides the article seems to be telling the truth...

The same incident is mentioned in the "Amyntika themata" magazine...

Alepou 340MB - June 10, 2005 12:34 PM (GMT)
Or maybe there is a precedent? I believe your Air force sunk a certain Turkish destroyer in 1974, which you guys unsuccessfully tired to cover up. :damn: :gang beat:

Cheers,
Alepou 340MB

Picard - June 10, 2005 12:43 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Efeler @ Jun 10 2005, 02:20 PM)
However I recall the incident around 1999. During the yearly SeaWolf live fire exercises the decommissioned TCG Berk destroyer was sunk as a target. The exercise was in the Mediterranean and the explosion was so loud it startled residents of Rhodes. The Greek newspapers immediately reported that we torpedoed our own ship by accident and 7 sailors died :gang beat: It was so hilariously absurd I actually cut out the article and saved it. I figure it was another attempt at malicous misinformation to try and make the enemy look inferior (especially to the Rhodean population that had just been scared out of their wits). This is a common propaganda trick used since WW2 in which, it seems, Greece has still not shaken off...

And don't forget that they also made up a story saying that the second pilot besides Nail Erdogan who was in the Turkish F-16 shot down over Aegean in 1996, was not Osman Cicekli but in fact an Israeli pilot. What a laugh that gave me at that time. rofl... :roflmao: I wonder if it were the same magazines..... :o

cameleon1975 - June 10, 2005 01:02 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
I figure it was another attempt at malicous misinformation to try and make the enemy look inferior (especially to the Rhodean population that had just been scared out of their wits). This is a common propaganda trick used since WW2 in which, it seems, Greece has still not shaken off...


Hm,if you had any idea of the greek press you would reaalize that they criticize the competence of our goverment(and army) much more than that of any country.Its called DEMOCRACY! :D

As for propaganda ,i really don't think so.Its your press who is just recycling time after time what your goverment officials say and pretend that Turkey is a superpower.....when its more in the league of the third world countries......

modus - June 10, 2005 01:30 PM (GMT)
Hm,if you had any idea of the Turkish press you would reaalize that they criticize the competence of your goverment(and army) much more than that of any country.Its called DEMOCRACY!

:)


OK here you stop guys. Enough for spitting race, which has no winner save for a number of bacteria swarmed thereon.



Kiziroglu - June 10, 2005 01:40 PM (GMT)
The main point is why we should believe greek magazines which even you critizies ?

Pytheus very effective to post the magazine pages....which are written in greek

Pytheas - June 10, 2005 02:02 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Kiziroglu @ Jun 10 2005, 03:40 PM)
The main point is why we should believe greek magazines which even you critizies ?

That's a point...

But we are criticize our press when they have different estimations or follow a policy line each one of us disagree...

Unfortunatelly on the "Sea Day" NATO exercise, they are talking about something they experienced... And they do not say "oh, how inferior are there Turks in naval things, we Greeks can punch them any time", No.
They focus their critisism in the same way everybody criticized them in the exercise... That such incidents are not good for the outside image of the Alliance, and especially in a sensitive area as the Eastern Mediterranean that our influence in Middle East must be catalytic...

QUOTE
Pytheus very effective to post the magazine pages....which are written in greek

Well, I posted that cause I had them scanned and on the net already, as a friend of mine asked me to post the article to him, and since such a topic was opened, Iposted them so anyone who can read greek can read them...

If you doubt on what we say on this matter, any greek can confirm it or not...

I trully wish I had the time and the zest to translate it , since it's a nice article IMHO, but I haven't them as you can see...

:)

cameleon1975 - June 10, 2005 02:39 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (modus @ Jun 10 2005, 03:30 PM)
Hm,if you had any idea of the Turkish press you would reaalize that they criticize the competence of your goverment(and army) much more than that of any country.Its called DEMOCRACY!

Today i learned I new thing:Turks(at least some,most of them live abroad and visit Turkey only for vacations) think that they live in democratic country. :applause:

That reminds me of a great joke: With the Pasok goverment i live a great life....in Germany(greek immigrant)

Kiziroglu - June 10, 2005 02:47 PM (GMT)
Well and what the turks learn ? That some Greeks still think that Greece is the center of the world....with its 10 millions...lol

the leaderstate of the EU...and the Nato...

modus - June 10, 2005 02:47 PM (GMT)
I don't think that you've got my point Cameleon, anyway, never mind. I am not good in spitting contests.

Knowledge is good. Biases are bad.

cameleon1975 - June 10, 2005 02:58 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Kiziroglu @ Jun 10 2005, 04:47 PM)
Well and what the turks learn ? That some Greeks still think that Greece is the center of the world....with its 10 millions...lol

the leaderstate of the EU...and the Nato...

Is that so?Why don't you leave us and our Aegean sea alone then? ;) Go play with your Syrian and Persian ''empire wannabees'' brothers and don't look any more to this unsignificant part of the world.


Efeler - June 10, 2005 03:02 PM (GMT)
Cameleon are you stating that our "lack of" democracy implies that we are covering up news stories that may shame our military?

I tell you this, our most recent top Navy admiral was charged and put on trial for corruption. Likewise in another naval exercise a few years back, it was revealed in the media of a torpedo malfunction that caused nearby frigates to "run for cover." Trust me the amount of news sometimes revealed in our media would make the US look like a Nazi regime.

Democracy and freedom of speech also cannot stop fictitious, manipulated, BS news. In fact it would fuel it even more. I do not see any other democratic source or NATO release saying that the Turkish frigate f##ked up. :doubt:


cameleon1975 - June 10, 2005 03:09 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (modus @ Jun 10 2005, 04:47 PM)
I am not good in spitting contests.


Neither am I but I don't think that you should accuse us of propaganda in our press with all that mess happening in your country....Many of our reporters are fools and write stupid stuff but at least they don't ''dissapear''.....I don't know if you got me.....

modus - June 10, 2005 03:13 PM (GMT)
Yes I get you very well and to the point, nevertheless I feel your news are a little bit rotten, and fail to depict Turkey as I live in. Countries evolve, change, transform, but biased minds don't.

cameleon1975 - June 10, 2005 03:31 PM (GMT)
Well then i advise you to read some recent human rights report on Turkey.Some progress may have made...still you are closer to the banana republics that democratic states.....

@Efeler Next time you'll say that Turkey invented democracy :roflmao:

digenis - June 10, 2005 03:33 PM (GMT)
Oh boy... can we all settle down before this thread is ruined? Let us stick to the topic.

For the Turkish forumers, I would like to make a distinction between the "regular" press in Hellas and the specialized military press. The "regular" press don't have a clue and most often write nonsense (both about our military as well as yours).

With regard to the incidents that occurred during "Niriis '05" (May 11-13) and "NAC/MC Sea Day" (May 19-20), these were reported by the specialized military press and not some amateurs. In addition to the incident with the Turkish ship, there was also a report about the "collision" of a Hellenic tugboat with a Hellenic frigate (and the breaking of ropes). There was no apparent effort by the different journalists (since these reports were on competing publications) to fabricate or exaggerate situations. In fact, they spent more time focusing on the tugboat incident then they did on the Turkish one.

cameleon1975 - June 10, 2005 03:53 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (digenis @ Jun 10 2005, 05:33 PM)
Oh boy... can we all settle down before this thread is ruined? Let us stick to the topic.


Those good old times in the WAF forum are gone for ever! :bawl:

LOL! :lol:

Pytheas - June 10, 2005 03:57 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (digenis @ Jun 10 2005, 05:33 PM)
With regard to the incidents that occurred during "Niriis '05" (May 11-13) and "NAC/MC Sea Day" (May 19-20), these were reported by the specialized military press and not some amateurs. In addition to the incident with the Turkish ship, there was also a report about the "collision" of a Hellenic tugboat with a Hellenic frigate (and the breaking of ropes). There was no apparent effort by the different journalists (since these reports were on competing publications) to fabricate or exaggerate situations. In fact, they spent more time focusing on the tugboat incident then they did on the Turkish one.

True.

Efeler - June 10, 2005 04:23 PM (GMT)
Thank you for the clarification Digenis. Again the best source for debates like this would fall onto neutral sources. (Turkish media is likewise notorious). Will keep an eye out on magazines like Warships monthly etc. for any confirming news...

Cameleon. Nope, never did imply that Turkey invented or is an ideal democracy. But comparing it with "banana republics" (implying African states?) is a rather poor and crude judgement. I would classify it as among the better in Asia and eastern Europe. You see, I am in the belief that true democracy would flourish in a society that is more highly educated. Doesn't matter which region of the world.


digenis - June 10, 2005 04:27 PM (GMT)
I do need to say however that the reporting by "Amyna kai Diplomatia" was very unprofessional and sensationalist (which is why I have not purchased that magazine in years). They used more than 2 pages (minus pictures) to discuss a rather minor incident for which they lacked specific information (it was all based on hear-say). Should I even comment about their use of "Malta Yok" and similar disparaging comments? How many pages did they use to actually discuss the events of the exercise? Poor article.

On the other hand, "Amyntika Themata" used less than one paragraph (2 sentences) to mention the incident. And they only did that because they wished to inform their audience that they were scheduled to board the Gaziantep (F490) but instead boarded the Themistoklis (F465).

Everyone knows the naval tradition of each country or people. It is however dangerous and irresponsible to underestimate their present abilities simply because of it.

digenis - June 10, 2005 04:31 PM (GMT)
Efeler,

This was a minor incident that a reliable Hellenic military magazine gave just 2 sentences worth of attention. I don't exactly expect this to make headlines (it should definately not be the focus of a thread dealing with the exercise either).

Efeler - June 10, 2005 04:45 PM (GMT)
Anyhow here are some pics from that exercise, including the notorious Gaziantep frigate :D . Note, I see double RAM launchers on the ship behind the Greek frigate. Who could that be? (Compliments of the Turkish Navy website)

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

DirtyBird - June 10, 2005 04:51 PM (GMT)
Is there any information in the article regarding why the TCG Gaziantep could not hold course or why the ships in the formation could not follow. Without specifics as to the cause of the incident, simply saying that it was big embrassment to Nato and the Turkish Navy is simply an easy story to tell. Incidentally single line formations in todays navy are used for nothing more than parading and give no inidication about the combat capability of the crew or the captain. I would characterize this story as typical hate mongering and belittling by the Greek media and government sources that we Turks are accustomed to seeing. As Digenis put it this could only be to your disadvantage.

As for the comments bringing into Turkey's domcracy, I find it very hypocritical of Greeks who themselves went through a turbulent history of attaining their present day democracy bringing into question Turkey's history of obtaining its democracy, which incidentally today functions no better or worse then Greece. Maybe someday some of you will stop reading rubbish and believing your own lies and you will come and see for yourself!

digenis - June 10, 2005 04:58 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
Note, I see double RAM launchers on the ship behind the Greek frigate. Who could that be?


The German Navy FGS RHEINLAND-PFALZ (F209) of the BREMEN (Type 122) class. These ships share a similar design with the Standard/Kortenaer class frigates.

Laid down: 25th September 1979
Launched: 3rd September 1980
Commissioned: 9th May 1983
Builders: Blohm & Voss, Hamburg
Complement: 219

Displacement: 3600 tons (Fully Loaded)
Length: 130.0 m
Beam: 14.5 m
Draught: 6.5 m
Speed: 30.0 kts
Range: 4000 at 18 kts

digenis - June 10, 2005 05:11 PM (GMT)
DirtyBird,

The article is simply stating what was reported (by NATO officers), and not the reasons. In fact the translation of what was presented is: "the captain of the Turkish ship could not, or even worse, would not maintain a stable course and engaged in maneuvers".

Again, it is a MINOR incident. Can we all stop this worthless pissing contest now?

Kiziroglu - June 10, 2005 06:09 PM (GMT)
Well i like Digenis comment.

Ps DirtyBird Hosgeldin/Welcome

Alepou 340MB - June 11, 2005 05:59 AM (GMT)
Here are some pictures from NAC / MC “Sea Day”
From the Hellenic Navy’s website.

user posted image

user posted image


Cheers,
Alepou 340MB




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