i seem to remeber somewhere in the lizzie army book, it says that chaos was the source of the old ones power. anyone care to explain this? (OMG just realized i havent started a thread here in forever)

Yes, that's correct. If I can remember it correctly (which I probably can't), the old ones are magical beings (gods, I suppose). Where does magic come from? The winds of chaos. So, in a way chaos is the source of their power. I don't know if the chaos gods can actually control the flow of the winds of chaos (I don't think they can).

You see, if I may add in a star wars reference, the winds of chaos has some similarities with the force. It acn be used for good, it can be used for evil, the ultimate uber people (Old ones and jedi) both try to only use the good side of it, etc. Actually, in ep 3 when anakin was talkin to the sith lord, it kinda made sense to me how the jedi had a sort of narrow minded view of thew force, and how they couldn't tap into it's true power if they only used it's good, I sorta saw them in a new light. (Except for yoda, he's awlays awesome). But, then again, I guess that's why anakin turned evil, he couldn't handle even the smallest amount of the dark side of the force without becomeing that evil. Kinda like death magic in the winds of chaos.

Im gonna go look up some stuff about that now, it's actually an interesting subject. It would bring up a host of new things in my mind if the four powers can actually control the powers of chaos, or wheather, like everyone else, their just using it, or if, perhaps, there is some ultimate chaos, a source of all this magical energy, that basically controls everything. I dunno, GW did an excelelent job with it though, if it can bring this stuff up.

All this stuff actually reminds me of one of the little fluff quotes in the rulebook, where Tzeenetch is like "I am Tzeenetch, and you are my puppet who dances to my tune" or something. It always stuck with me.

Uh, yah. That went on longer than expected. Ah well, *Whistles* im off to get my rule/army book.

EDIT: The more and moer I think about it, the slann seem a lot like the jedi.

Another thought, this brings up the question of what the old ones did at the warp gates fighting the four powers. I just had a thought about it. In ep 3, Anakin uses the evil force, thinking he can save his lover etc etc. Basically, he tried to tap into the dark side to save people, etc. What if the old ones unleashed some super death magic in their last attempt to destroy the warp gates to, kinda like Anakin, save their world they shaped, or something. Anyways... I still haven't gotten my books yet.

Another edit: I was walking down to the basement to grab the books, then I relazed they were right at my feet. To quote the simpsons:

Back again, I just realized that the four powers (at leasst some of them) wouldn't have power of the winds of chaos, since (for an example) Khorne doesn't even use it.

On a side note, does anyone know what language the names of the winds of magic are written in? (you can find them in the rulebook) It looks like it could be elvish, or, quite possibly some type of saurian.

yeh i agree, gw has done a very good job at providing a solid background to the warhammer world.

well, i reckon that the chaos polar gates were beginning to get out of hand, so the old ones attempted to push back or regain controll over the polar gates and in doing so destroyed them. gw hasnt actually gone into how the gates were destroyed and how or why the old ones were destroyed/left. i reckon that after the fall of the polar gates the old ones gathered enourmous forces of lizardmen and attempted to reclaim the gates and seal them off. after seeing that that this was an impossible task, the old ones left the planet and decided to complete their task on another planet.

or you could say that the old ones were destroyed instantly after the fall of the gates due to the incredible amount of raw energy that was released into the world. this left the lizardmen around to clean up the mess that left behind. the forces of chaos fought for centuries (i think) and they pretty much came to a standstill. with the forces of chaos being stopped by the lizardmen but with many temple cities left destroyed.

well i know that the lustrian campaign is already on but wouldnt it be awesome if their was another campaign "The Reclaimation of the Polar Gates" or something like that. you could say that the lizardmen had just discovered some more information about the old ones and have only just learnt of the importance of the polar gates to the old ones. and say that there have been an explosion in the number of spawnings so that the lizardmen can build a grand army which woul sweep across the old world or retake the polar gates so that they can complete the task of the old ones. just imagine how cool it would be....

As far as I know the chaos is the the source of magic, like ore and iron.
the polar gates where made of stone and warp, like the warp gates of the eldar in 40k, the polar gates where used to travel great distances in short time, like the eldar warp gates8I think that was what they were meant to be)
The Old ones mixed up engines with magic ->arcane engines which were their technology-> magic is their technology ->technology was their power->magic was their power-> chaos was their power
Somehow like that
@CM: Well, the thing with anakin is a bit stupid cuc padme wouldnt have died if he hadnt turned to the dark side of force which he wouldnt have done if he wouldnt have known that she would die which she wouldnt have had if he hadnt known that she would...
Thats somehow like in a story of sindbad where are (female) fortuneteller tells him that he will kill his own friend so he stores all his weapons in a net under the ceiling. When his friend comes a weapon cuts through the net and falls on the friend which dies because of the net that had benn there because his friend didnt want to kill him because a fortuneteller said he would

@XxKroxigoRxX - what did that have to do wuth anything?

I think he was responding to something I had in my post, right near the bottom. At least, I think he is.

just saying that it would be cool if they did a campaign about the fallen polar gates is all.

Yes, but I think GCS just criticised that XxKroxigoRxX has gone offtopic

I don't think that's what he meatn, but I guess only GCS knows, it isn't really OT. I had something about it in my post, and he responded to it. Also, were talking about the old ones, it's hard not to mention something about the warp gates when their brought up.

Anyways, I was thinking. The winds of magic come from the warp gates, right? I wonder if they have a source somewhere, where they originate. Or if they just were always there, and just kinda flow around.

I mean, it generally established that they come from the realm of chaos, and the only place that would make sense would be through the warp gates. I don't think it would be too much of a stretch if there was someone, or something that could control them. Not on the warhammer world, but on some other world (not trying to tie 40K and WH together, if anyone thought that.) Like, where the old one's come from or something. Or, where chaos come from (if they come from anywhere)

Or perhaps they originate in the shadow realm (If there is one, that is) and spread through the world via the warpgates. They can be used for travelling vast distances in the blink of an eye, but what about dimensions? Also, if deamons are made of terrible dreams, it's not too much of a stretch to think they come from another dimension (a dream dimension or something) and get here through the warp gates.

it says that the warp gates lead to uncountable realities, so i would assume that there are other dimensions, and daemons do come from the warp gates.
@xxkroxigorxx- i just didnt realize what you were responding too.

:lol: :lol: Slann=yoda :lol: :lol:

I think that the Old Ones have left the planet in order to begin new worlds.
Alright, im just saying this cause i think its very similar.
I was online reading the fluff for Warcraft. The old gods who created Azeroth have been creating worlds since before the dawn of time. (One of the gods went renegade and started destroying stuff--so hes the evil in the universe) he now goes around following the trails of the true gods destroying all created.

Now azeroth was by far the most succesful world yet created. and was protected by the night elf sentinels. other races eventualy evoloved. The evil god has gone tru out the universe exspanding his army of the burning legion(chaos). he attains his generals of dreadlords(greater demons/vampires) they themselves attain the troops, demons, liches(undead), orcs are swayed under the power (tribalistic and warlike in nature easily taken with blood pact)

BLAH BLAH BLAH ect... evil god opens gatways for his army to spew forth upon the world. the great well colapses.... the Good Gods have left the world in order to keep life in the universe.... the evil god's followers (forgot to mention only his follower i think is attacking the world and he is destroyed) leaving the story line up to the World of Warcraft game.

Srry if any of yall know the fluff better than i do, cause i dont comprehend so much reading very well.

but i think warhammer follows a much similar background.
(by the way, does warhammer actually have a name for the planet? or is it just called world of warhammer? ;) )

Just want to correct you on some of your warcraft fluff there, cham archer. It's generally believed that before the nelves, there were trolls (Gurubashi and some other one) and the Azjol'nerub. It's also beleived, through genetic similarities and some fluff, that what happened was some break away group of trolls found the well of eternity and were influenced by it, cut off from their troll ancestors they evolved into the nelves. (And from the magical nature of the well) The Gurubashi trolls then split up over differences, and were scattered. Then, the nerubians split up into the sillithus (Ahn'Quiraj I think) and nerubians (Azjol'Nerub) and started warring amongst themselves also. Plus, some of the other races (like the undead and orcs) didn't actually "evolve", but were brought from other planets (by the burning leagon and medivh, respectivelly) It looks like you've got the other stuff right. Sorry, I was just reading a thread on the WoW boards about this, got me in a fluff mood. Oh yeah, plus, the evil titan your talking about that went bezerk isn't actually destroyed, because you can't really destroy a titan, just biding his time. But the only real force from him left on the world is that of his first leutenant, Ragnaros. (plus the dark iron dwarfs.) Though, he tends to keep to himself, not really actually going after anything.

Most of the prehistory of warcraft (AKA before the humans/orcs came in WC1) isn't documented too well, though I find it the most interesting. Hopefully that will be solved with the upcoming instances (Zul'gurub and Ahn'Quiraj or something)

And your right, warcraft uses an extrmelly similar backround (cept the trolls are cooler in warcraft ;) ) with the creater gods leaving, some mysterious integalactic forces invading, etc. Also, what's interesting about warcraft is that after warcraft 2, everything stopped being so black and white, sice the orcs were freed from their deamonic history, returning to their tribal ways. While the humans are tainted by hatred, so there is no real "good". It's interesting.

I use to not get the warcraft fluff either, it seemed like there were too many evil guys and I couldn't keep track of all of them. :(

Woops, just realised that's longer than i wanted it to be. Sorry :( It's interesting stuff though if anyone gives it a read.

On to warhammer relevant stuff, I don't think the old one's actually left for the good of the world (like the WC titans), rather out of necessity. Unless they left so as not to attract more of chaos, but it looks like the got all of it attracted by the time they left. I forgot why the titans actually left though, was it to not attract more of the burning legion? Cause the nelves already kinda screwed that up for them.

Wow. This is a Huge Topic.... I'm gonna sticky this.

BTW, I think the Old Ones Power kinda backfired.. like the Romans and the sort. If you become so Great, there is always something that can bring you down.

So the Old Ones fed Chaos Power, without knowing it?

Wait, I might be getting WC and WH confused... *thinks*

I don't think the Old Ones were actually feeding them power, because I don't actually know how that would happen other than giving them magic or something, but magic is something that one can't control (The winds I mean, you can't control the winds, just use them)

Just want to ask something, were the old one's attracting chaos through using magic, because I know that's what was happening with the nelves in WC, so I might be getting them confused...

Oh, yeah, also, I don't really think this needs to be stckied (at least not now) because it doesn't really seem to be in danger of falling off a few pages, but it's your forum, so i'lll leave that to you.

the oldones did direct the winds of magic, how else can you explain the lines of power between the templecities?

Well, 1, if the Old Ones aren't here anymore, how do they still work (that is, if the old one's did control them). Wouldn't they stop working after the Old One's left? (the ley lines, that is)

And 2: The (so far) explination for the magical ley lines is that they are jet streams of the magical winds, (I believe this is said in the generals compeium) so I would assume they work much the same as normal jet streams here on earth. I know making comparisons between the two doesn't work in many situations, but hear me out. Saying that the Old One's had power over the jet stream of magic because they use them with the Temple City's, is like saying that planes have control of wind jet streams becasue they use them in travel. Also, it says that the temple city's were built on the ley lines, not that the temple city's were built, then the ley lines appeared.

But, if the ley lines don't work the same way as they do here, then I guess it's possible.

AWWW> im getting overwhelmed with think much nessy.

i think i did mention orcs are from Dreanor and undead from some where else. W/E :rolleyes:


anyway ill let yall continue, geting interesting i think

keep in mind though that :

- even the slann didn't know exactly what them OÓ's where doing all the time
- the Slann didn't choose the building sites, the Oó's did
- The ligns of power are made in unlogical ways, I'd say they took magicstreams already existent, and glued them to the templecities by putting an element in these that attracted the winds fo magic. This explains why the lines are really straight and why they hit every temple city, how close these templecities might be to eachother.
- During the invasion of chaos, the ligns of power began to shatter, this can be explained due to templecities falling meaning the gluepoint was gone and that part of the line could go all uncontrollably, pulling itself loose. After chaos had retreaten, it was only a matter of restoring that element.

@ Myself: that all sounds really logical, I'll expand my story that I will post soon to include the lay lines.


@Casual moose: The old ones left the warhammer world, but in spirit they are still there, in the form of blessed spawnings. (one of them is coming back in physical form in my story) :ph43r:

you mean they use psychic powers to influence things happening? awesome!

remember, in space there are no lines of power (this is presumed) so there should exist another kind of magic next to wind-magic lets call that psychic.

Unless ofcourse they're using the warp, which I wouldn't suggest to anyone really.

Ok, I think it was(in warcraft) that the elves(and dragons) did use so much power that the demons thought: wow, so much magical power, weve got to invade that world, have gone there through a gate, invaded it, lost and have gone. So the nelves and dragons thought it wouldnt be too good to use that much magic anymore and let it, but some elves which called themselves high elves later still used magic while the druids of the nelves fall into sleep till their magic powres would be needed again.

In warhammer, the demons were attracted by magic too, used a gate, too, invaded the world and have lost, and came again, too while the slann meditated(lept) most of time.

Havent you wonderred that some things(gyrocopters, steam tanks) which seemed to be similar to some warhammer things(gyrocopters, steam tanks) have changed their names in frozen throne. Do you think it has to do soemthing with gw?

just my two hundred cents

Yeah, that seems right huanloq, just one thing (I think)

The druids don't really use magic per se, but influence nature. The nelves dissalowed all magic, but I think allowed druiidic stuff to continue, because they don't really count it as magic. Plus, I believe it's the blood elves, not the high elves (or maybe rgwm too) that still use magic.

Point taken.

I don't recall anything saying who chose the building sites, but that sounds logical ,so okay.

Yes, but who's to say what illogical when were talking about magic? Ill give you the other point, it does say that they are contructed of magical materials. I don't think that that explains why they hit every temple city though, because if they just built them where they interconnected, they would be the same (still be able to hit every temple city)

Okay, first point noted, but, if they slann didn't always know what the OO were talking about, how could they restore that element (lets call it element X, cause it sounds cooler.) Just thought of something else. If they were made of a magical material, wouldn't the Lines of power curve on their journey, as they were pulled towards different temple citys that they come close too?

blood elves are basicly high elves with a different name(cause their brethren were slaughtered by i forgot who).

Actually i u look very carfully thru the credits of warcraft u can see that they say it was based of the GW stuff.

And possibly that's why GW sued/sues Blizzard.

yeh i have noticed a link between warhammer and warcraft. if i remember rightly, the human griffon rider says " look at my warhammer, it cost me 40k.....hehe " after you click on him a few times.

Yes, he does, and I just have seen another link between wc and wh, weve got nelves and helves(or belves, however) in wc and welvisses, helvisses and delvisses in wh, and the helvisses splitted up in both games from nelves(welvisses who both live in holy forests...

I ve got to check that now

edit: checked it, but couldnt find it, at which place in the credits?

Is that of RoC or TFT?

I don't think so, the winds of magic are everchanging and wouldn't have stayed in one place long enough to build a templecity in UNLESS they were pinned to the spot in some way.

hmmm, well guess what plagues are for? :P

anyway about the curving, I'd expect the winds of magic to try to wringle and turn around and stuff all the time, attracted by the other cities and ofcourse due to its unstable nature, thing is that they're pinned to the ElementX so they can't disconnect. This means there are two places where the winds can always be found: The templecities connected by them. The slann know which templecities are connected with eachother (cuz well, they travel through them physicly or something)

knowing this there is only one way to draw the lines in a logical way, straight lines, representing a middlezone of the places the lines can whip out to. connecting the cities.

remember that a plague was found which talked about the conquering of albion and the making of a templecity over their? guess who made those plaques ;)

I actually didn't pay much attention to albion for some reason. Forget why.

Well, the rest of what you say sounds good, so okay. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I guess we wont really know. Plus I can't think up of anything to reply with right. My mind's tired from homework :(

Oh yeah, and you always seem to say plagues. I thought you were talking about the skaven :P

hehe :P

that kinda reminded me of the powerpuff girls... good 'ol times :wub:

anyway, the old ones are just like the powerpuff girls.. suddenly they had superpowers and did all kinds a good things, and suddenly they disappeared, and there were loads of other cartoons instead :)

damn.. this sounds really stupid..

hahahaha

good one, gonna sig that.

lol, too bad they never showed any of the good cartoons/anime here in holland.
UK, yes.
Ger, yes.
Swe, yes...
Fin, yup...
Everywhere except here...

yup, its true :(

But that's why we got internet!
*is downloading his 2nd series*