Posted Originally on the Singapore Forum by me:
O.K., being a dog breeder, I have some experience in this, and in fact bred a line of highly sought after dogs some years back, before the lack of outcrossing, and circumstances did that line in. (I began to throw white/piebald bi and uni lateraly deaf dogs out of solid colored dogs, and as there was no way to tell where it was coming from - this happened in several litters - I realized the inbreeding had brought out a recessive gene for deafness, and/or the inbreeding was bringing out the white which was causing deafness, so I decided to not breed the line and let it die out.)
I have my own way that I would breed out a strain, maintain enough genetic diversity to promote hybrid vigor, without a total outcross to the main strain, causing a major reshuffling of the geno and phenotypes in most cases.
Granted my mental and paper musings tell me, it's more than a bit of planning to do this right, but all things worth doing are worth doing right, especially when there are lives that "I" created at stake, as well as professional pride and self respect in a well bred line.
I would love to hear the breeding theories of the other members of this forum on the formation and maintanence of a strain, and compare my thoughts to those that have carried their plans out.
One thing I should mention, because in my excitment at finally getting on, the dog I breed is the pit bull, ADBA registered, and the ADBA pit bull is perhaps the most inbred non laboratory mammel there is.
However, I was surprised at how inbred the betta is. Not that it bothers me... After all in the developement of a strain, incest is best, lolol.
However, the breeding methods described seemed in some instances, haphazard at best, and potentialy ruinous to a developing strain at worse.
And as many have learned, too much inbreeding isn't good either.
So how do you get around this cunnundrum? I have my ideas, and I would like those of you who are and have developed viable strains to comment, as again, this is all hypothetical.
How do my musings weigh in against the real world?
The first idea of breeding a strain, once primary goals such as color, pattern, and tail type is set, is choosing a breeding method that will allow a longer period of in and line breeding before an outcross has to be made.
Using my experience in breeding dogs, I would think that a complete outcross isn't something that anyone would really want. However a seperate strain that is line bred to the main bloodline would be how I would plan my breeding strategy.
1) The way it would work is like this, separate from the main line, I would breed a male or female from the complete outcross stock to a fish from the main line with similar geno and pheno types. (Any number of these F1 crosses can be made, the more made the larger number of fish I can work with.)
2) At least the two of the best spawn (M&F) are bred again back into the main line of the strain I am trying to develop, making it 50% main line. (If more than one cross was made, the best from each spawn would be chosen.)
3) The spawn from that is 75% main line.
The 75% line are bred into the 50% line, with the resulting spawn being 62.5% main line. (Should several lines be produced, they can be bred into each other maintaining the 62.5% inbreeding co-iffecient.)
4) There will now be three lines maintained for a bit from this cross stock. All will be spawnmate bred, but one will be from this 62.5% line, and the other will be from the 62.5% line bred back to the 75% line making a 66.75% line and the third from the 62.5% line bred into the 50% line making a 56.25% line.
5) You now have three similarly bred lines to cross into your main line:
56.25% - A
62.5% - B
66.75% - C
6) The idea when making these initial breedings is to line breed, so when back crossing, you are not going to breed to a direct parent or grandparent, you are going to back cross to a closely marked spawnmate to the parent or grandparent. OR you can breed to the offspring of the parents spawnmate breedings, but the better bet would be to aunt/uncle gr-aunt/gr-uncle.
7) After four generations of spawnmate breeding, you are going to want to make a cross. Not only do you have at least three similarly bred lines to cross into your main line, but you can breed the lines together as well.
I would begin with crossing the main line with the three different percentages:
M - A = 78.125
M - B = 77.325
M - C = 81.25
9) These spawn can then be bred back into the main line once more, before resuming spawnmate breeding, or some of the main line can remain pure, though filal degeneration (inbreeding depression) is a risk, though less so if STRICT breeding selection is used, and ONLY the best of the best is spawned.
10) The percentage lines can be bred amongst each other as well, extending the line further...
A - B = 59.375/D
A - C = 50.475/E
B - C = 53.625/F
After another four generations minimum of spawnmate breeding, you once more cross these fish back into the main line.
At this point if I had been maintaining a pure line of the main line that had not been crossed, I would make a complete outcross with that line, and breed the result back into D, E, and F.
I would breed those three lines together into one line, and begin again.
If I had to breed the whole of the main strain into the cross strains, I would make at least two complete outcrosses from say lines D & E, breeding the result to line F and then at this point begin again.
I should add that on the main line, primary goals should be established, and that should be the focus of that line, with secondary goals also established but not focused on. The primary goals should also be a part of the concideration of the secondary lines, but the focus of those strains should be something lacking in the main strain.
For example, if color is the primary goal of the main line, color should be a factor of the secondary lines, but finnage should be the focus of those lines.
By crossing the main and secondary lines, color and finnage should both be expressed, if not in the first cross than at least by the F2 of that cross because the gene pool though not as limited, is still quite close.
By maintaining such goals seperatley, then crossing the different lines into each other, color and finnage should stablize within a few generations. Further, it should eventualy set into a true breeding type, forming a TRUE strain.
There is no major secret or revelation I have provided here, just a sound breeding practice. The idea is simply to provide a genetic mixture, but not so much that you throw the geno and phenotypes off kilter. By adding the needed genes in small doses, buffered by closely related genes, you would be able to preserve both Geno and Phenotype, and should the phenotype falter, it should correct itself in the next spawmate breeding.
This type of breeding is done all across the US with pit bulls, though slightly different, for example a male may be bred to his daughter, grandaughter and gr-grand daughter, making the pup 87.25 percent the father.
Then a pup would be bred to say the father's half brother whose dam was a half sister to the original female used. (Hopefully that made sense, lol)
A pup out of that breeding would then be bred to a dog that was tightly inbred on say the father's sire, but with a completely different outcross.
Of course there is never any end to the breeding, but that is what makes it fun!
Of course when doing such intensive breeding, keeping accurate records are a must, and being able to read a pedigree would be a good idea as well. Not only that, but you must be able to know what fish came from what spawn.
CompuPed is a good computer pedigree program, as is The Breeder's Standard. My breeding records for my dogs are all hand written, but I don't think it would be too difficult to customize a pedigree program for bettas.
Anyway, that's my breeding theory... The only thing needed now is time and space, lol.
Very nice :D
I had this idea too, but being that I don't have the space to maintain many separate lines and great numbers of fish (yet!) there's no way I could put it into practice myself. I'm also concentrating on multicolour marbles at the moment, so I think the outcrossing is part of what makes it fun -- you never know what you're going to get! For someone trying to do a solid colour though, or set pattern like your orange dalmations, it would be a very good breeding strategy indeed I think :)
Well I don't have a lot of room either.
I was just hoping on keeping 2-3 pairs from each spawn I get, just to continue the line until I have do have the space to really work these lines the way I want to.
I even have an experimental spawn happening (shhhh don't ask), and the same will go with them, I will keep the best 2 pairs.
Once I have bred the pairs, and the fry are adults, I can let one of the pairs go. Just the minumum I need for carrying on the line, until space isn't an issue.
The above can also be modifed to have fewer or more outcross lines as well.
Marbles are fun, but even still, some homogeny is good to help hold fin shape.
This was quite factinating... I don't quite understand everything, but I'll figure it out with time.. :P
Very nice post BettaBelle..
O.o o.O O.o o.O
Alright, the percentages completely THROW me off, but here's how it was explained to me a way of breeding: You have your Two Base Fish: your male and your female of like phentotype/history. Spawn them. Keep the best three pairs from the spawning. Make each one of those pairs their own line, not crossing them with each other for a couple of generations. If needed, breed back to the parents, but still run that line as that line. And when you need an out cross, you have two other slightly related lines that carry simular genetics that you absolutely know the history of back up to the foundation pair, and there you have it! Solves the over in-breeding problem (for after 2-3 generations, the fish cease to be closely related), and you KNOW what you are breeding your fish to.
That and also keep IMMACULATE breeding records. Keep a complete record for each fish, including date of birth/arrival (if purchased), weather it is ST or DT, male or female, coloration, what generation it is, what line it is a part of, EVERY THING! Keep all times and dates of spawning, when you put them in the tank, when you let the female out of the chute, when the first eggs appear, etc etc etc. This will help keep your lines straight, and keep you from being cross eyed!
I agree that most of that is indeed necessary, and please, don't trust your memory.
You can modify this list to suit your needs.
Now, I don't bother writting down generations, and lines, because I pedigree my fish, and the information is there at a glance.
Just by looking at a pedigree on a fish, I know what generation the fish is, what line it is, tail type and color, ect.
I use this, and while it doesn't completely meetmy needs, it is fairly decent, and worth the price..
Fish Diary Thanks for the Fish Diary link Bella, that is almost *exactly* what I was looking for!
She is a fountain of information this woman!
By the way, Lisa, nice photo in your profile. Lovely eyes.
Yer welcome..
You know, I post thier link up all the time, they should give me a refund for all the business I have sent them, lol.