I ordered a superdelta satin flame pair from bettatalk, and i and hesitating about ordering another. The site owner does not post actual pics of her fish and the pair i bought won't spawn and does not look much like the 4 pictures that faith did have on her site. I have also heard things about bettatalk being dishonest and fudging the truth, but i have also heard really good reveiws about bettatalk. Any opinions? :T

Oh boy..

To begin with, it is my understanding that Faith is no longer a member of the IBC. I do not know how true this is, but if she is NOT a member of the IBC, then the LABS cannot be an IBC sanctioned club, from my understanding of the IBC by laws. That is IF she is LABS president still.
Looking in the members websites on the IBC, I can't find her site, so I am putting this in the likely to be true pile.
That being said, the first website I found was her website, and it seems as though WOW!! This chick is amazing, if annoying. But as I learned more and more, I realized that what she is selling is all smoke and mirrors, and she caters to those who do not know better.
If you would follow me on a little tour of her website, I will show you what I mean.

http://www.bettatalk.com/catalog_new.htm

This is her strain catalog. Now, aside from the fact that the IBC has asked breeders to not use strain names that are not genotype based, I have found a lot of inconsistencies within this catalog, things that drawn the newcomer in, but chases away those who know.
And people will not speak out, for fear I suppose.

Take a look at her Holy Grails...f
I love the first line

To hear her, she singlehandedly recreated the DT opaque, and is struggling hard to bring it up to par.
But you know, all she had to do was breed a DT Steel to an opaque with an extended dorsal, and you would likely get DTs in one generation. Or breed two extended dorsal st opaques together, because they are likely carrying the DT gene. Otherwise, breed the F1s together from that steel DT cross, and you have DTs in 2 generations.
Not that hard, not that difficult. And if you used quality fish to begin with, you will have show quality fish to end with, and will not have to work all that hard to bring the line up to snuff.
A lot of patting herself on the back for nothing
Now, when you go and look at the pictures and let's look at "The best DT opaque produced to date"
Well, first, I have seen better on aquabid, for considerably less than her 80-120 a pair. Second, this fish does have nice even lobes, but they are skimpy, and not at all full. That V split is horrible, and this is not a fish I would be rushing to breed to. Both lobes need to be far fuller than they are, and I prefer to see an overlap of the upper and lower lobe. Third, the dorsal fin is not carried high and forward, but instead is breaking down. Not only that, he has several shortened rays in the front, which though is common for a DT, makes him not as good as those AB fish I have seen with razor sharp dorsal edges. The anal fin is a little long, but over all, acceptable. But the vents are rather thin and skimpy, also the fish lacks deportment and is rather short bodied even for a DT and I don't like that cello thing happening in the upper lobe of the tail.
I like the claim that fish the right on the upper right was the first opaque with DT genes I would think that because Gene Lucas CREATED the opaque, that he had opaque DTs long before she even came to America. See the rounded edges on the tail of the female? And I don't see crisp tail edges on the lower left fish, they look somewhat rounded to me.
So if these fish are indicative of the Holy Grail line, anyone who has put that kind of money out has, in my opinion, been hosed.

Looking at her Cardinal Red strain, I have to say, they are a much higher quality than the Holy Grails. She says they are from a top IBC breeder, and that the brother to the one male swept first at the 2002 convention.
Now, I did a little research, and the breeder that took the A1 class which is single tail males, at the 2002 convention was Patrick Cyccone. Now I am not trying to knock this man, but I do not see him on the top 50 list for point standings for that year, nor do I see him on the top class standings for that year to date.
Further, the name is not at all familiar to me.
A few wins does not make someone a top IBC breeder.
So, I did a little more looking.. And well, the show prior to that was the Pacific NorthWest Betta Society, and Patrick Cyccone did not place at all there...
The show prior to that was my local club, The Philadelphia Area Betta Society, and Patrick Cyccone was not listed in the winners..
CBS is the next prior, and again, nothing. So I decided to check the three shows following convention
The next show was the Midwest Betta Club, but I could not find anything about that show, the results were not available no matter where I looked. Next show was GPAS, and I have no clue what club that was, and again, no Patrick. Finally, he shows up again in a half moon show, which was NOT an IBC sanctioned show, as I understood it, but a fun show held by a club for half moons only. He took 1st and 2nd for reds.
The next official show was First Coast, and Patrick did not place.
I am not beating up on this man at all. The point I am making is that Faith states this is a top IBC breeder, and in truth, it seems as though he is not.
At the same time I was looking for this mans name on the 2002 show season post and prior to the 2002 convention, I constantly saw Jeff Hiller, Seig Illig, Dan Young, Connie Emory, Gil Limhengo, again, and agian, and again.
THAT is what makes a top IBC breeder, IMO. Not a few wins, and no one knows your name. But consistently showing, and consistently winning.
Now of course, that could just mean I did not get a fuller picture of the show season when he was showing. But that link is down on the IBC website.
I supposed I could ask Jim Sonnier if he has that information, but I think I have done enough. Based on what information I could find, I cannot agree that this man is a top IBC breeder, though if he had gone the distance, he could have been, because those reds are very nice.
Looking at the Gorgeous Yellows.. Well, I have no complaint with the first DTthought he does have a little bit of a bobble in his spine, the "foundation" fish that was likely purchased from another breeder, but the DT son leaves a lot to be desired.
Looking at the ST male in the upper right, count his rays, he is a random ray, with only a 2 count in places, and rounded edges, little better than a VT. And the female is 2 rays with a round tail, and a pointy anal that indicates a poor breeding prospect IMO.
The Crowntail Opaques..
Well, first, the picture she used is of a platinum, and not an opaque, look at the shine on him.
Then look at his finnage, one word.. Crap. The rays are curled in the dorsal, and random on the tail. Random not only in length, but in count. The fish on the right is better, but a very messy fish. Oh, and he is not an opaque either, but a pastel
Then the lie, as I call it in the lower left...

What a bunch of bull that is, that fish is NOT even a CT, but a young HM type fish. And he is not an opaque, but a pastel also. The crowning is VERY evident on young males. It is the females that are a pain.
Speaking of which, that was a good female at the time the picture was taken, and surprise, surprise, SHE is actually an opaque.
I will be quick with the blues. The first fish lacks spread, so it is hard to tell what he has, but the tail looks short, so I doubt he is a HM as stated. The royal blue is so old, his fins have broken down, IF he is a real HM, and I would think one would have enough sense to use a picture of a fish in his prime. The SD is a good fish, and the female is a decent fish. for me, her anal is too pointed, and her tail too round.
It is impossible to say anything good about the Black Crystals, because they are not good pictures, esp of the DTs. But the ST..

WHAT!!??
Follow the top edge of the tail of the male, and tell me again about crisp edges.
This is a jedi mind trick.
You don't know anything, so you look at that picture, and because the only thing you DO know is VTs, you find yourself saying, yeah, look at those crisp edges.
Well, hear me, I am the child crying out the the emperor is naked. That fish is not a good fish for breeding winning fish.
And that female is a 2 ray.
Never use anything less that a FOUR RAY female if at all possible.
It is OK to use a 2 ray female from rosetail lines if you are breeding into a rosetail, it will help to cut the branching down, without making you have veilish fish, but avoid it where possible.
All a White Crystal is, is a cellophane. I have them all the time. And the ones she puts in her strains at a glance, I wouldn't be writing home to momma about. They are OK, and only that.
Her red cambos are from two top IBC breeders, and one of them is the Cardinal Red guy, so you know what I say about that, and who knows who the other one is.
They are good fish, and I have no complaints with them, I just do not think they are with the price tag on them. That and the fish fish has a hump back.
Now, here is the deal with the pastels.. The first two listed are NOT pastels, but grizzels, and not even pastel grizzels, which is possible.
Not only that, but the second fish looks to me to be a VT
Look at his tail.
The third fish is a marble, and not a pastel at all. The female is a pastel though.
The chocolates have a male with no deportment, though this one actually DOES have nice sharp edges, and one with no spread or carriage that looks just like a Walmart VT I bought representing it.
Green/gold BFs have a fish with no carriage and then she says that outstanding specimen has a partial BF, forgetting to mention that a partial BF is a DQing fault. You can see nothing about the other fish, and the last is a round tail juvie, big whoop.
The only fish for Blue cambos has excellent color separation, and great edges on his tail, but other then that, I don;'t think he is so great.
Ivories aren't so hot, and in fact would probably be difficult to show. And remember what I said about females, right?
Going to the Satin Flames, am I the only one that saw she put the same fish up three times.
Look at those pictures carefully. No way these three fish would have the same exact markings. Look at the anal fin. Immediately left of the midline of the anal, there is a distinct M shaped marking in the red, jutting into the white. Look at the dorsal fin.
That is the same fish three times.
Yes, though she did say

she never said that was Fire's descendant, she leaves you to make that inference yourself.
With the Dreamcatchers, I see a rounded tail, a little better than a VT, and an ugly DT representing the line. There is nothing special about this, If you want black and white BFs, you just breed for them, but expect anything because of the marble, no big whoop, and then she tell you she is going to charge you out the wazoo for a fish that you will not likely be able to recreate, in her own words.
Yeah.
OK.
Nothing I have seen in the Apaches convinces me of their nice even lobes... I guess if it is said enough, someone will believe it. Not I.s.
As for the blue moons, well, I like this line

Assuming you know nothing about genetics, it is all well and good, but the FACT is, even when breeding marbles, if you are breeding two blues together, you are going to get 25% steel, and 25% green/turq and 50% royal. It is the genetic nature of the color.
And I would not be so quick to put a mature males with long BROKE DOWN fins on my site.
With the black/oranges, the DT in the upper right is a Gil Limhengo fish and is KNOWN to be one. Notice how she subtly claims this fish for her own? I am pretty sure the two fish on the upper right are Gil fish as well and probably the female too.
I would put money on the tangerine dreams being Gil fish as well.
The yellow spotted melano.. one word, GAG.
I can get much better fish from Sawarut for about the same price, and not have to fight to get decent finnage on them, because they came to me as HMs and not looking like some VTs by blow.
The Blue splash probably came from the base of the blue moon, also coming off Bonnie McKinley fish.
See this?

Remeber what I said about the blue moons? Same applies. No outcross was needed, because being blue fish, they are going to throw steels and greens EVERY TIME YOU SPAWN TWO BLUES.
Looking at the Black Splash, I see poor finnage, and 2 ray females, and the lie that

.
This was not true even this was written.
I remember when she started this strain catalog, and it has not been changed in 4 years. But even 4 years ago, marble HMs were to be found, though you would think that even today, she is the only source for fish that are getting close to hitting that 180 spread.
And I find it hard to believe that the Black and White splash are not off shoots of the black splash, they look like the same fish, same flaws, just more white.
As for the Twilights, the first male has no carriage, and the second male is a horrible DT.
I am not even going to look at the oddities, because she makes no claims, though they are over priced as well.
But I will say this. many females who carry red marble have red heads to some extent.
The black head yellow is the same fish 4 times.
And a tri color can come out of any marble line that is white based.

Combine this with the fact that you don't even get pictures of the fish you are buying, and the vague descriptions that mean next to nothing, I don't think buying BettaTalk fish is a good idea.
80 dollars for a SUPER DELTA??
get real.

All I can say is WOW! And I am astonished that someone would rip people off. What is the world coming to? Good info belle :D

She hasn't been a member of the IBC in quite a few years (disagreement to my understanding) though she has been on Animal Planet and I think a few other shows. I personally would not look to buying fish from her. If I was looking for fish, I would go to an IBC show and see who is winning classes with the type of fish that I liked, and look down that avenue. Or going through the people that you know well on this site, or eve looking for good sellers and breeders in Thailand, because I would rather buy fish from them first than looking to Faith.

LaBella, I'll be PM'ing you.

This is what I say.
When you look on her website, you see she is the president of LABS.
You see top IBC breeder splashed all throughout her website.
You assume, because you know nothing about these fish, that she is showing her fish, still, and you are getting top quality fish, after all, you ARE buying from the president of LABS who has fish from affiliated top IBC breeders. So you think you are getting the best of the best when you buy from her. The fact that she has a very good website, and seems to be well informed, and very confident of herself and her fish, helps to distract the newcomer from what she is saying.
But once you do your research, you find those problems I pointed out in my first post.
I will say this though, we know the IBC has issues with timely action on it's website sometimes, and Betta Talk WAS up on the IBCs members sites link earlier this year, so my assumption would be that her membership expired last year sometime, and she did not renew.
I will say this again, there is no way I personally would buy a fish for 70 dollars without having seen a picture of it first.
If she can sell them for that, more power to her, I just know I am not buying, and I would never have been a customer of hers past my first year of interest in bettas. Had I not decided to not buy HM fish, until I was in a position to breed show fish, I would have bought from her. I would not have regretted it, because I do not regret any of my decisions, but once I started to get an eye for a good betta, there wasn't any way I was going to buy from her, based on the pictures I saw on her site.
I will coincide that many of them are probably old, and the fish in some cases were probably good fish at the time the picture was taken, like the opaque ct female. But they are NOT good fish in 2007.
And I will not say that she is ripping people off. But I do think that buyer ignorance does come into play.

That part there was about as far as I got, when I saw this question and topic. I figured Belle would provide the good info.
;)

great information and warnings for our members. This sounds like the type of person that we warn new breeders and hobbiests about day in and day out. You can add a new coat of paint to an outhouse but in the end it's still an outhouse.

Well said and so true. ^_^

IMO its the difference btween who loves the fish and the hobby and who wants to exploit it and loves the money much more

:OO I missed this one! Belle, I agree with everything you said, and I really can't stand looking at her site for very long, but I have one more thing to add that really annoys me!

Here's the link to the page: http://bettatalk.com/crowntail%20opaques.htm

Here's a quote from that page:

Ok, WTH? Since when are CTs rare and hard to produce? I understand that part of this is explaining the color is hard to keep pure, BUT she also makes it appear that the CT trait is rare! When you breed CT to CT you get all CTs. Nevermind that they now have them at Petco and Petsmart for about $6.99 a piece! Yeah...RARE! Ha.

On a different note, I just had someone at my house looking for a pet betta. She had been looking online, and what did she find? Bettatalk of course! Thank God she was not naive enough to go through with it, and she did some searching online and found out that I live 15 minutes away from her. And she just got a full HM male as a pet. I tried just giving him to her, but she gave me $10. At any rate, she saved about $90 not going through Faith. And I told her under no circumstances to order fish from that site because of everything I've heard.

Anyway, this woman was probably the typical kind of person she rips off. She currently has 5 male bettas, all veiltails, and just wanted to get something fancier for a pet. Luckily, this woman was smart enough to smell something "fishy" with the prices and no real pictures, and she decided to shop around. But, I'm sure that every day, the average collector or new breeder decides to take their fish quality a step up, and they end up on her site. It's sickening to me.

She also wanted to try the Atison's Betta Pro, and she mentioned she had seen it online from another seller with a bad rap. I directed her to IBC sales. :D

I didn;t even got into that, I was just upset with her passing off substandard fish as top quality bettas, when they are not, and you are right, that lady is probably the exact person that she primarily sells to, despite her claims of many repeats sales, and I can only think of the old adage fool me once, lol.
I have no problem with someone making money, but there is a moral and ethical line that we must walk, and for ME, this is crossing that line.

I was considering getting reds from her because according to many people they're not priced too horribly and her reds are pretty clean, but there's a guy on UB forum that got a pair of her reds and just spawned them, i'll probably just buy from him.

Out of curiosity.. what was not horribly priced? And is she taking up to showing actual pictures of the fish you get beforehand or is it just a stock photo of "what the color will kinda look like"

Last time I checked the cardinal reds were around 40-50 dollars, ok I guess they are over priced but alot of people who bought reds from her got very clean reds and those are really hard to find. I'll doublecheck the site.

Sorry made a mistake, cardinal red cts are 45 dollars while cardinal red halfmoons and dts are bout 60-90. It doesn't matter anyway I'm going to pm the guy on ub bout fry.