Yeah, I know, everyone hates Mary Sues, those dreaded perfects and powerfuls who have all the canons' good traits and none of their bad. The problem is, there's a fine line between a Mary Sue and an attractive roleplay character. And the thing I have a problem with is that characters considered to be Mary Sues are almost always female. I mean, why do men get by with these charming, handsome fellows while girls have to make their characters moderately imperfect? Perhaps it's just that the Tortall quartets have so many female characters so that any pretty mage/knight character seems a canon mirror.

Yes, I'm probably just complaining because my character is a Gifted Lady Knight. But the important thing is the character's personality and the quality of the roleplay. Everyone knows that playing a powerful or beautiful character is more fun, somehow, and if you're not rping for the fun, then what are you here for?

Of course, this doesn't mean I want a powerful mage who also has Wild Magic and seduces men with her gold and blue eyes and voluptious figure in the meantime between bouts of advanced swordfighting. I'm just asking what's wrong with a little attractiveness, a little magic? In the right hands, beauty can be a good thing in a character, not just an ideal wanted by an inexperienced rper.

Most of this I've regretted and am itching to revise the moment after I've typed it. But I have this irresistable urge to air my thoughts on the matter. Tell me you wouldn't like it better if your character could be the way you first imagined him or her before you toned them down. Some of this is stupid and most of it is ill-thought through, but I'm looking for some rhyme and reason to the witch-hunt of Mary Sues. I don't want the rules to be revised, but I want to know if a hint of beauty can bring a better character, or at least better roleplaying.

P.S. Please don't label me because of this; it is just a thought, not my standard. Mmgrh! Must resist need to edit!

I have nothing against beauty or power, it's just these things are often the warning signs of Mary Sueism.


I don't take chances, on Sues. If there's a hint, I ask it to be explained.


Guy characters are generally played different than female characters. My character, Hayden, is charming and handsome and intelligent, but somewhat of a jackass, doesn't know when to quit having fun, and is moody broody, etc.

He happens to be my baby, and someone who I have untangled from Gary Stu-ism and into actual character.


And I have to disagree with you, none of my character have the Gift and I find that by twisting my characters personality into interesting posistions rather than making my characters all good, makes them fun. Of course, I find flaws fun. There are much better things to be doing with a character than showing off their Gifts or whatnot.

In the wrong hands, aka newbies wanting their character to be able to do all and be all, they can become dangerous and turn rping in a self-centered catwalk. But if the character demands something it is very hard not to give it to them. If beauty/magic makes a better character and this actually shows, then it should be used. But for the purpose of having your character be better than everyone else then that is just inconsiderate and frankly stupid roleplaying

Makes sense, after all, they're a dangerous species and they breed quickly. How much is a hint, though? Is 'pretty' allowed?

Female characters are harder to keep from Mary Sueism; if they're beautiful, they're there. Somehow they have to be attractive without being perfect. It's probably because girls value appearance more that there is such a problem with beauty

That's good to hear, as pulling a character out of idealism and into personality is hard to do.

Well, I wasn't trying to say that it isn't fun without magic, it's just that some people's characters would be better with it, and perhaps it's worth it to give it to them, if it makes them happy. Of course, once the Gifted ball gets rolling you get ten mages greater than Numair.

Perhaps part of the problem I have with it is that almost all of my characters are good. Pure and noble sort of good. I guess I have a problem with evil or even disreputable.

Of course there are some characters that have to have great need to be beautiful or have magic. I think a great examle would be Cosette of Rosemark, being beautiful is highly engrained into her character. If you took out her being beautiful, her whole personality would deteriate.

We have our underhanded members Eulia's a good example. Iskra is also not going to win the Nobel Peace Prize anytime soon. John isn't a good guy. Sam's not 'good.' Crispin is direputable. Azarian is no sweetheart. And how can we forget Haig? There's more but I'll stop.

But my point is simple, we are not all good. Far from it.


There's no good guy/bad guy plot, true enough so the line is blurry.


And I would also like to say that I have known decent newbies. I know a newbie first time RPer who made probably one of the best bios I had ever seen.

And I beg to differ on the beautiful front. It's not a problem, just something that needs to be hedges around daintily and have one physical flaw that is not a scar. I consider that part of the profile nearly null and void in the bio when it comes to figuring out how Sue the character is.

I'm not saying that we won't let you have magic. You can just use it sparingly in the bios. As I said one per person, unless there's an absolute need.

I suppose basically we follow the philosophy on this board that is kind of set out in the PotS quartet that great and mighty heroes are few and far between and really everyone else is just kind of slugging it out in their place in society.

Any character who is well rounded, has positive and negative character traits and can be justified as they are, tall, short, beautiful, ugly, whatever will find that they are accepted. I think one of the great credits to this role play and keeping it so interesting is the range of the characters involved and the realistic natures of their interactions.

I was a newbie to RP when I joined this site so I'm proof that no one on here has a thing against newbies or think that newbies can't write decent characters.

Yes, I had a look at her bio. Of course, because of that reason there's no question that she's Mary Sue. (Really rather far from it)

I admire the people who create all these wonderful, believable underhanded characters, beacuse I doubt I could do it. I mean I suppose, if I really tried, but my characters are almost always good people. That's the thing about rping; not only do there have to be good characters, there have to be bad as well.

Yes. In real life, which should be reflected in roleplaying. There has to be a realistic balance.

I have seen many brilliant newbies. I don't think I was that bad as a newbie myself (I hope :unsure:) And then you see these horrible rpers who ruin the name for the rest of them. But at least they learn.

Despite the fact that it is a large part of it? But then again, there are also the factors of how ideal the charcter's history is and how complete impossible their skills are

Magic can be definitely overused. The power level definitely has to be moderated. One per person is reasonable; I was more reacting to the semi-ban of it as it's put in the rules.

I think I'm going to post my character at this site, just to see some input. I apologize in advance for any Mary Sueish-ness; it's so much easier to just post this stuff about Sues and so much harder to implement it...

Edit: Sorry, I didn't see your post, Falik...

Yes, heros aren't exactly commonplace in Tortall or any other world and they shouldn't be rped as if they were.

Yes. More important than their looks is their personality and their soul.

Newbies can be great rpers. It depends on the person, and their writing skill. I'm glad no one here has a thing about newbies; people like that often make a site unfriendly

It's not banned. If it was banned, I wouldn't let anyone have magic. It's discourage. You know what I would like to ban however, letting your first character have magic unless you sign some weird legally binding contract that you'll make more characters.

Oh, that's no fun. Some people like to work with a single character, me included, although I like multiples as well.

What was the point of this thread, anyway? There is no easy answer about not-quite Mary Sues and what really matters anyway is how the character is played.

I agree and I disagree. The way you play your chara will affect its personality and so forth - its all intertwined... I have to admit, however, when I first looked at your bio, I really did think it Sue... Now, reading it again, I can't say I disagree much with my first impression. She's not pure Mary, but a few steps away, although, I really like the way you've allowed her personality traits to show themselves only in moderation. Still, she has a lot of generic Sue qualities, for example "mild mannered with a temper". Classic.

Anyway, why put yourself up as a target if you don't have to?

Yes, I'm afraid Elspeth is at least half-blood Sue. What I was trying to describe in the bio was someone who is normally calm but sometimes angry, aka not prone to fits of temper but not Yamani or anything. I suppose that's still Sue. Sigh.

Why did I put myself up as a target again? I don't really know, a combination of posting something as it entered my mind and a interest in the dos/do nots of rp characters. I didn't quite think it through, which is unfortunately common for me.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, my first chara was the mistaken heir to the throne of Gondor. I was an obnoxious newbie, let me tell you!

RPing gets tough, especially at this stage, the idea being to make an unconventional character, when the norm is to be as weird as possible. Sometimes its just better to go normal. Generally, I start with the history, as that seems to be what molds the chara the most.

Rrr, I wanted to say more, but I gotta go. This is much better than many of the dumb games we play around here. Oh well... :blink:

Ok, I do feel slightly better.

Weird is hard for me... Elspeth is pretty normal, just a minor knight, despite the fact she's a woman. She's had a pretty normal life before then too.

Yes, debating is kinda fun :D More like showing our opinions than actually debating tho...

Wow. I'm an example. I'm honored. Plus I'm far from Mary Sue. That was my first charrie ever. I think she's quite a delectable character personally. Yes it was rough going getting her past Kit. I wanted run of the palace for her escapades. Ok, of my little selfcentered rant now.

Falik al Basiri, Azarian of Stone mountain, Crispin Godwinson, and Iskra Vorsonsra are Nana's characters. My charries are Antony of Torhelm and Eulia Domasik. Kit's are Sam Munroe, Hayden LaRue, John of Elden, and Kat Qamar. Just so that you know who's who when multiple character's are bouncing around. I know I missed other people with multiple charries, but w/e. I'm Erin by the way. I think I'm the only Canadian on this board.

I'd have to agree with the rest about Elspeth though.

What really struck me was this. Exotic colored eyes, raven hair, tall but not embarrasingly tall, only a few to many muscles to be considered slender. There are frequent references to how Kel was built like a blacksmith. ANd Alanna was stocky and compact. In general my impression has been that most knights are. She has mad skills in seemingly everything even though her stamina isn't the best. etc... hehe. I'm not even a mod! Well that's just what stood out in terms of sueishness.

Edit: Merci

Don't forget--Kit's got John of Elden, too.

Yes, on the new site I'm thinking everyone should be forced to put their multiple charries in their bios, for simplicity's sake. I was confused for a month after coming here on who was who. But you figure it out eventually.

By the way, I'm Emmi, 16, and I just got two very nice emails from our listers who said that they would be very happy to edit the information on their site, and they understood the situation perfectly. Wow, that really made my day! I guess their the "good ones"; I don't expect to hear from the bad ones for maybe a week.

Since we all seem to be doing this, my charries are:

Eleanor of King's Reach, chief healer at the infirmary, and cousin to Katharine and Daniel of Blackwater

Thomas Rede, immature and fidgity Rider trainee.

Artemis of Tirragen, the heir to the legacy, who's perfect to a fault.

Anna Strange, who's not very strange. I don't really know what she does, except she's a talented musician and maybe a little of a romantic.

Haig Gilmer, the mentally unbalanced cesspool cleaner who I have yet to play. Heh.

Well, hope that clears things up for you... :)

It's only so she doesn't get confused

I'm not sure who to ask, so I'm just posting it here.


Would it be possible to have only one account, and just list the multiple charries in your signature? I think we're all smart enough to figure out which character is doing what. Especially if the writer puts the name of their character in the post, which I expect will be the case in most scenarios. Just an idea. I just think it makes it easier, if you don't have to log out all the time...

hmm..I actually dont mind logging in and out...I like having my characters as separate entities.

Personally I think it's less confusing when everyone has one account with the name, avvy, and sig that of the member and not the character. But having different accounts would be fun too; its not like everyone has to go one way and all.

She is very Sue, something I hate but can't seem to avoid. She's tall, thin, and dark-haired; that's who Elspeth is. The thin thing does seem somewhat improbable, but not impossible. I can make her somewhat more stocky if you like, but it wouldn't go well with her character. By the way, grey-green isn't exactly exotic; its just something of an indistinct pale color between grey and light bluish green. One of my friends has grey-green eyes.

One other thing; I have to give her good skill as a fighter b/c she's a knight. She went through eight years of page and squire training, and every character from the books were tough, powerful fighters by the time they became knights. Stated plainly: she fights well with her sword and bow and is crap with everything else. Even her skill with the sword, however, is somewhat negated by her strength; sometimes being agile isn't enough to win a fight.

Anyway, now after you've heard my nice excuses, tell me I have to do something about her anyway.

A female fighter doesn't have to be stocky, wiry or muscular serves just as well. People carry their muscle in different ways, but it would be hard to be a knight and be stick thin or not have muscle mass

Hm, you know, that really used to bug me at first, having to log in and out a lot, but now that I'm used to it, I prefer it more. Anyway, it's not like you're going to be penalized for posting a character under a diff SN.

I find that I tend to be only using two charas at a certain time - I usually alternate between them, and give the others a rest for a while. So, its never been such a big deal. I don't know that it works the same for everyone else, though.

yeah I tend to focus on a couple of characters at a time or whoever I feel most like playing that day.

I'm a true blue Virgo so I like things ordered and in their place, separate characters works well for me. More easily identified as well. Not knowing who's who is quite easily resolved by having a "cast" list as it were with the RPers real names and what characters we play, easy referrence then. I know that Eire started one but obviously it's that age old mod problem of not being able to update them.

Wow. I totally did not mean to post that here. I somehow thought this was the thread Important in Announcements. Sorry about that, lol. :unsure: