Is there anybody but me who thinks there was a lot more to the relationship between The Phantom and Madam Giry then we got to see on the screen??? (No, I am NOT talking about a Romance!!!!) It seemed to me that there was a real Big Sister type of attitude going on with her. And as The Phantom had no one, it seems as if he might have had a brother/sister feeling for her as well. I acutally wrote a story along this line. I mean she could not just dump him at the Opera House and go on with her life. She had a certain responsibility for him from the start! She'd have had to help him at first with food and clothing until he figured out his new world! Anyway, after The Phantom, she was my next favorite character! *dogma*

Yes I think that there deffinately was a brother/sister or at least a good friend relationship between the characters of Erik and Mmme Giry. Afterall, she was the one who saved him from his life of hardship and chose to risk everything she valued to keep him safe. I like the way that he also respected and left alone her daughter Meg. I'm sure buried somewhere in the story is the idea that he did his best with the opera managers to get her dancing career moving.

Esther
*mask*

I wrote in my story that the Phantom was sorta a distant "uncle" to Meg---I saw him looking after her from a distance! In it he did interact with her a little when she was VERY young---to young to remember him. In one part I had her lose her little doll somewhere and he searched high and low for it as she was crying and crying, and he tucked it in her arms while she was asleep! I see the Phantom as being that personality that is like LittleMissMuffet---When she is good she was very very good, and when she was bad she was horrid---The Phantom had his horrid days--but also his good ones, which is why we all oved him! *mask*

I definitely think there was a close relationship between the Phantom and Madame Giry. She saved his life, as well as helping him start a new life at the Opera House, and I'm sure he never forgot that. If I remember correctly from the original novel, the Phantom watches out for Meg and Mme. Giry (although she's a much older character in the novel; I prefer the movie version), and of course, she keeps his secrets too.

I love the way she protected the secret all the way til the end and then finally confessed to Raoul!

Can anyone tell me (I'm not sure if this has been discussed already) just exactly what age difference is there suppose to be between the characters of the Phantom/ Madame Giry and the Phantom/Christine were?

My guess is that if Madame Giry was around six years older than the Phantom and had Meg when she was 18 or so and Meg/Christine are around 16.....wouldn't that make the age difference between the Phantom and Christine around 12 years?

I think in the original novel the Phantom is a much older man than Christine but by how much I'm not sure.

Esther
*mask*

*mask* So much has been changed from the book through it's various versions that I think we should just base the "new" story on the movie---If Christine is about 16 to 17, and Meg about that, then The Phantom has to be around the young 30"s as GB plays him and he is no 20 year old in looks. Also he has to grow up under the Opera House and Christine is not even born yet! Madam Giry would be maybe 5 years older or so---and she could deffinately have a teenaged daughter. Also she was a ballerina originally---so she may have put of a personal life for her career till she met her true love, and then did the family thing. It is never said but he must have died and that required her to go back to work. The interesting thought is when she did marry and have Meg---if she went to start her own home, that puts the Phantom there alone till she comes back! Also it had always been accepted that Christine viewed him as a Father Figure, she he would have to be around her fathers age! If the Phatntom was only 15 when Christine was born, that automatically makes him over 30. And that makes Giry only about 20 when she had Meg. Hope my reflections help a little to figure this out! *erik*

*erik* In one of the post, not sure which one, someone said that Madam Giry helped him "till the end when she helped Raoul"---anyway I was thinking about that and that I should have relpyed to it, so decided to just put it here in the "Subject" about her---I don't think she ever helped Raoul per see, I think she loved Christine as a daughter, and she loved the Phantom as a brother---but by the Don Juan Opera fiasco she knew the whole thing was falling apart. That the Phantom had basically temporarilly lost his mind over the lovesickness! She wanted to help CHRISTINE and so showed Raoul the way. She knew the Phantom could undoubtedly take care of himself!!! I think no one was more devistated by the whole chain of events than Madame Giry----she must have died a thousand deaths wondering what had happened to him after that tragic night! At the beginning of the movie, she is old, but it is clear that the Phantom is still in her thoughts otherwise she would not be bidding on the monkey music boX!!! In the after novel I wrote they do meet up again!!! I just couldn't see it any other way---she was the only "family" he had, and she had protected him for so long she could not ever get him out of that place in her heart, even tho he had killed and been BAD, he still would have been her ERRANT BROTHER! *2*

*larke*
Hello everyone!
On the fact that Madame Giry was at the auction for the bidding for the 'monkey' could she not have been bidding for Erik, to give to the late Christine?
Remember what Raoul did with it? I feel that she declined to bid when she realised Raoul was there not for himself, it had no true meaning to him. Christine must have told him about it.
AND...

Erik was still alive, he left the rose and the ring!

*kilt*

That part of the movie was sort of a mystery to me. Do you think Erik put the rose on her grave every week, year? What? And why was the engagement ring on the rose that particular day? Was it a special day, anniversary? What do you think? How long had Christine been dead? Help me, help me!!

*1* I think Madam Giry was bidding on the Music Box becaue either she wanted it for herself because it had meaning to her and her life and the Phantom was a big part of that, or she wanted to give it to the Phantom. As for the Rose and Ring, it was my idea that Christine had just passed on and that was why the Phantom had put the rose and ring on her grave. To say goodbye. Raoul looked upset during the whole B&W sequence and that is why I sorta assumed that she had just passed on. And that is why Madam Giry let him have it, in sympathy. I see no reason for "Erik" to give it to Christine as it had no real meaning to her---I think Raoul gave it to her because he was trying, after her death, to say that he (at long last) understood that part of her life---perhaps she told him she still cared for Erik in a different sort of way on her deathbed. As for "Erik" I know it has become established that that was his name but Leroux only said he "used" that name, not that it really was his name!!! But I think I am whistleing in the wind with that one! I have no problem with you calling him Erik tho--in my own after-novel I had him use the name myself---I just wish people would realize that it is not set in stone that that was his REAL name, Leroux kept it a mystery- as it should have been! *shh*

Great! Tahnks for the insight. I'll have to watch that part again. I have never read the book. I have just been a fan of the stage play and now the movie. What do you think happen to the phantom at the end of the movie when he disappears???

*erik* Wel what happens AFTER is the big unanswered question! It has spawmed countless stories and novels (my own PERSONAL private one encluded). I guess Webbers idea was that he wandered the world or Paris alone, always lovesick over the lost Christine. Sorry I can't accept that!!! He deserved a better life than that! As for the book, it is very old fashioned and bares little resembelance to the man we have come to love. Leroux's Phantom was a half mad monster, who was born without a nose, and had skin like a corpse! The book is funny tho, because all of a sudden a piece of dialog will jump out, one used right in the movie! Madam Giry in the book was an old woman, nothing like our Dynamic Movie Giry!!! Except for it's quaintness, and the fact that the story started there--Leroux's novel has little of interest! When I wrote my story, I made an effort to intgrate ALL, the pieces together. I addressed how The Phantom got confused with a second man (also deformed) who WAS named Erik (and the Phantom read about) and traveled threwout France, but never was at the Opera house. In his old age MY Phantom, confronted by a devoted male servant about "Sir, you ARE the Phantom of the Opera!", throws a copy of Leroux's book onto the desk and says "THERE is the Phantom of the Opera, a monster with no nose!!! Pull on my nose, pull on it hard!!! I promise you it will not come off!!! Therefore, I guess I am NOT the Phantom of the Opera!" He also muses in his writeings that at first he considered Leroux novel amuseingly stupid, but as time passed he was angry that THAT was the story left behind about his life, all that people would know!!! By the way, in mine he submits Architecture drawings for a building, wins the contest and it is built---not wanting to use his own name on the plans he uses the name ERIK GIRY. Our own Madam finds it quite amuseing and takes her husband by to look at the bronze plaque upon the door with the name! *erik*

According to the dates on the headstone, Christine had been dead for two years. I think that Phantom knew that Raoul had bought the music box to put on Christine's grave (why would he keep it himself?) and that was his way of giving the ring back to Raoul and acknowledging that they had both loved her all those years.

AHmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!! Verrrrrrrrrry intersting! It just didn't all make sense somehow. But, I was more than willing to suspend disbelief after the emotional experience I had with that movie. Thanks , both of you for your insight.

I was going to check out those dates next time I watched it (I never remember numbers--and when I watch the movie, I've other things on my mind!) Well, then it does seem a bit coincidence that he left the rose and the ring on a date two years AFTER she died---I mean it made more sense if it had been that week or month. There really wasn't time for Giry to tell the Phantom and for him to beat Raoul to the cemetary, and no reason for him to suspect that he was headed there. I mean it did not really make a lot of sense (except to Raoul) why he even wanted it!!! Of course The Phantom could have been watching the auction from above---but still. Anyway Raould WAS tearie during the whole B & W segments, so I still think that is why Giry let him have it, she felt he wanted it for whatever reason, as he'd been through so much if he wanted it he needed it more. Actually to me it made more sense that Giry wanted it for herself because she knew what it had ment to OG or to give him as she thought it would please him. I really don't see why anyone would think Raoul wanted it for Christine. The movie states that she had told him about it and it was "exactly like she said" but so what? Unless to say "I understand you had these feelings for him all your life because of the tragic love he had for you, and it was seperate from our relationship" I don't see any other reason. Maybe I missed something here! I just can't see OG saying "Oh Raoul bought the monkey so he is headed to the cemetary to give it to Christine so I'll run faster and beat him there and put the rose and ring on her grave to say--- WHAT?--- to him." That is to bazaar! Raoul could have wanted it to smash to pieces and throw down a hill for all anyone knew! Well someone needs to pick Andrew Lloyd Webbers mind on this one---and get back to us!!! :um:

*hi* BEENTHEREDONETHAT---I got your Email and did reply from my regular email site---I don't know how to work the one in here *smash* As computers confuse me--will get Mystic Sin to give me some lessons!!! Anyway I do want to talk to you about the subject!!!! *hang*
NEW TOPIC---I did not know where to put this so am Posting it here! *read* THIS IS FOR MIRANDA RICHARDSON ADMIRERS!!! I just finished watching the Hallmark 2 part movie (It was on Sci-Fi channel) called MERLIN. Going back to pre-PHANTOM, Joel Schumacher said that Richardson was his first choice for Giry, I really had not known her work, so I wondered what it was about her---of course I thought she was the BEST choice for the film, but wondered about the selection process. After seeing her in MERLIN I sure can see WHY!!! Even tho she played the Bad Goddess Queen she was SPECTACULAR! Really spellbinding!!! So DYNAMIC!!! When she was on screen you just could not take your eyes off her! And she was so BEAUTIFUL and SEXIE too!!! I mean I was thinking that maybe the Phantom really missed the boat here!!!!! This is one sexie woman---she was a widow---and she didn't cringe from his face!!!!! Guess he wasn't seeing the forest for the trees! Christine had youthful innocence---buy Giry is capeable of a major smolder under that haughty look!!!!! Anyway, if you are at all interested in this lady, this one is on a MUSTSEE list!!! <3

Well I personally would like to see the Pre-phantom Days... I wish they would have been more clear about her life and more on how she helped the phantom but after all the story is mostly about him and Christine so I guess there is that.

If you are interested in Madam Giry, you might want to check out Miranda Richardsons very excellent site: www.miranda-richardson.com. I was overwhelmed at her body of work, and fascinated at the photos in the Gallery! And I also saw that they will be doing a sequel to MERLIN, altho Miranda will only be playing her characters sister The Lady In The Lake who is white blonde. Not the smoldering dark haired (evil) sister. Now if only there was a part in there for *gb* !!!!!!

*erik* We were discussing the auction and the ending cemetary bit, and I got thrown for a loop with the 2 year dates between Christines death, and the placeing of the Rose and Ring on the grave! Well Mystic Sin and I bashed ideas around, and what we finely decided that made the most sence to us, was that perhaps The Phantom did not stary in Paris, but traveled around Europe---hearing about the auction at the Old Opera, perhaps he was prompted to return, and then found out that Christine had died. He then went out and left his final goodbye to her, and it was only a coincidence that Raoul showed up just after with the Music Box....well, that is the most sence we could make of it! If anyone else has any ideas just jump right in here............and to any new members, we started out talking about the relationship between The Phantom and Madam Giry, and feel free to add your thoughts there as well! *shh*

The last time I watched POTO, now that I know the story so well, I tend to notice little things more and more. During the POINT OF NO RETURN parts, Madam Giry, she looks up SO obviouly concerned and distressed when they are up on the platform. And it did not look to me she was worried about Christine and much as the Phantom. At one point she looks scared to death!!!!!!!!!!!!! See if you cn notice that next time you view it if you can keep your eyes off of OG long enough!!!

We were also talking about Miranda Richardson being in MERLIN, Mystic Sin just recently saw it and got all inspired--------she dressed up as the Goddess Maab for Halloween. If the snapshot I took comes out I'll post it here. *flash* She looked stunning, just BEAUTIFUL!!! Wow!!! I dressed up like a Gypsy and it was fun, but Mystic coulda stopped traffic!!!!

I dont think I could have stopped traffic but thanks for the complement... perhaps with the awe of my darkness could have stopped traffic. Now miss gypsy on the other hand was very beautiful herself... and she did have a teenager talk to her because he thought she was HOT indeed. *smiles*

Okay, now I HAVE to tell you the story!!! So I was helping my friend give out TrickorTreats, and as I love Halloween I was all dressed up and my costume was a Gypsy. I had on 4 peasant skirs layered, a lace up vest, a big sleaved blouse, about 10 pound of coin jewelry from middleeast, and bangle bracelets 1/2 up my arms. On my head I had on a curlie long black wig with a bellydancer coined and beaded scarf tied around my head, and my lace up heeled Grannieboots. So we are giving out the treats, and these two teenaged boys came up and the one starts talking about my costume and going on and on and laughing and having a good time, so finely they are leaveing, and as they go down the walkway the one says "Why were you talking to that Old Lady?" and the first one says "I don't care if she's old---she was hot!!!" WELL NEEDLESS TO SAY THAT MADE MY NIGHT!!! I mean I thought I was to old for Mr Butler, but hell if a teenager could think I was HOT, all I gotta say is OH GERRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!

*GIGGLES*

OKAY---BACK TO MADAM GIRY!!!
I just rewatched POTO for about the 28th time, and I was really watching our lady Giry and her reactions to the things happening. For one, I noticed several times that she did seem near tears. She obviously feels great love for the Phantom. At the Masquarade when he is looking at Christine, she has a very sad look, as if she is feeling his emotions and yet she is wishful that it will work out for him. I also noticed a certain smugness at times. As if she is very proud that she is his contact and gets to deliver the messages! Also when she slaps Boquet it is as if she is quite angry with him that he dare to say such things. When she says "Hold your tongue!" it is not so much as "watch your step or you will be sorry" as it is a WARNING "or else"! This is a very complicated lady, and I really feel that you can only describe it as if she has oldersister feelings for the Phantom because she took him under her wing those many years back.
On a bizaar note (well I thought it was totally off kilter!) when we first saw the film Mystic Sin had a thought that Giry was IN LOVE with him and that Meg was his daughter!!! I told her that was abserd, but actually if someone was advernturous enough to want to write it, it could be a dynamite story! (Don't look at me, I have my own story going!) *mask*

I BROUGHT THIS TOPIC UP AGAIN FOR KAIE, CAUSE SHE HAD JUST SEEN PHANTOM FOR THE FIRST TIME, AND MIGHT BE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT ALL THE INS AND OUTS OF THE RELATIONSHIPS---AND WE HASHED A LOT OUT HERE. RATHER THAN TELL HER TO RUN AROUND THE BACK PAGES AND LOOK FOR IT--------YOU GUIES KNOW THERE IS A LOT OF GOOD STUFF BACK THERE! NEW PEOPLE SHOULD GO CHECK OUT SOME OF THE OLDER TOPICS!!!----I THOUGHT I'D JUST BRING IT UP HERE. NOW THE FACT THAT MADAME GIRY IS MY NEXT FAVORITE CHARACTER DID NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT!!! :lol:
*1*

thanks Gypsy!!! I feel so special now... ;)

I can't believe I didn't mention Madame Giry before. I'm a huge Miranda Richardson fan! I really adore her! she'd a real lady and she used this quality in portraying Madame Giry.

her relation with the Phantom must have been special, but the film (and perhaps the musical as well) presented it only from her point of view. it seemed to have been one-sided which was a bit stupid, because I don't believe the Phantom could forget her kindness. it looked as if she protected and remembered him, and he didn't even know she existed...

he left the ring because that was the day of filming! ;)
it happens very often in various films - objects of symbolic meaning are found on a particular day just to make the audience aware of the very symbol.

or something.. <_<

:P :lol: :P :)
Thanks - that clears it up for me..........

HE LEFT IT BECAUSE IT MADE A GOOD CINEMATIC ENDING!!! :lol: *nude*

Well anyway, back to Madame Giry. I do think he knew she exsisted!!! He had no one and she must have been special in his life. Everyone needs someone. I still hold with the brother-sister relationship. Also Leroux wrote that the Phantom paid attention to Megs career and made certain to have the old Theater Manager know of his interest in her!!! It is sad she could not have had a bigger part---but then it was only a 2 hour movie!!!
*shh*

absolutely. you're right. but at least two sentences spoken to each other, or a meaningful glance from BOTH sides would make the film 5 minutes longer and would stop Madam Giry from looking like she cared for someone who didn't care about her too much...

I just wrote on the Leading Ladies Topic about this, so I won't be redundant and put it on here again---however I fully agree with you!!! But as I said there, men wrote this and they do not think about such things!!!! So we must all use our imaginations I guess. But on the side of the Phantom not careing---how could he not care??? Without her he would he have not been killed for murder, and surely not have been set free at the Opera to lead whatever shred of life he coudl make for himself there. Also she carries his messages always, and is loyal to him. She has seen his face and is not horrified by it. To assume that he does not care is to make him a sociopath (spelling?) or worst---someone with NO feelings. Do we believe our Phantom is not capeable of feelings??? HARDLY!!! He might be arrogant or a weebit selfish---but no one would accuse him of not having feelings!!! He seems to have much passion---and having that passion, how could he NOT care for dear Madam Giry who is ALWAYS there for him, and ask nothing for herself!!! Think about it!!!!! *mask*

I'm not saying he had no feelings. I don't believe that.
but.. OK.. this is a bit dificult. Madame Giry was scared to go all the way downstairs to the dungeons (or whatever that was). she told Raoul that this was as far as she dared to go. and this is the very thing that seems strange to me. she cared for the Phantom, she was loyal and spoke for him in public, at least at some respect. so she should be the last person on earth to be afraid to go into his realm. she was a friend and should be treated as one.

but you're right - men wrote the story. perhaps they didn't pay enough attention to details that us, women, are certain to notice ;)

The Phantom had put in the boobie-traps to deter anyone from coming into his realm and surpriseing him. Like the water thingie Raoul fell into. I believe he told Madam Giry that it was not safe to go down beyond a certain point. And she knew Meg had no one but her to depend on and she could not take the chance of a false step. She respeced his lair, as one woudl respect a closed bedroom door. She had no need to go down, he could meet her many places uptop. In the movie, less is made of it than in the book---but the Phantom had box 5 reserved for himself, and in the book Madam tended his needs there--and it was implied they met and talked there. Still, in the movie it does appear to be a bit of a hash!!!Also lets face it, the Phantom was excentric---Madam knew this and it did not put her off but she made some attempt to accomodate his excentricities. Well, that is how I see it, in any event!!! *1*

right. good point.
but she seemed to like Raoul. wouldn't she tell him to watch out for the traps? (by the way, I have no idea why he hadn't figured it out himself *rolleyes*)
I don't know... the story is good but someone should have paid more attention to details...

one more thing - I found this pic on Miranda's site. now, I don't have the DVD, I only have the Divx version. is my version missing this scene or was it deleted from the theatrical release as well?

Is that suppose to be from the movie - POTO?

yes. it was in the PotO section on the official site together with this pic

I don't remember this scene either :(

Yeah I have those pix in my collection. I can't remember for sure, but I think the bed one is on the Special edition DVD gallery---but both are on the Miranda site.
ANYWAY---the loungeing one was to be in the movie somewhere but the dingos cut it out!!!! Just like they cut the Phantoms NEW song NOONE WOULD LISTEN out!!! Josette sceculated that everntually they will do another DVD with all the deleated stuff on it, catch us Diehards twice for the money!!!!!!!! Well, okay, I am in line for the Extra Special Edition!!!!!!!!!! I can't help it!!!!!!! I can't get enought!!!!!!!!! *1*

No this scene with Miranda on the couch was in the movie just before the song Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again when they are all contemplating what's going to happen next.

Esther
*mask*