from wrestleview.com

Thoughts?

They put on something worth watching and they won't have to put out these kind of useless press releases.

Ditto like a motherfucker.

They should also be starting a campaign called "please for Christ's sake please order our PPV's".

The only positive thing I have to say about TNA right now is that Samoa Joe has the title and Karen Angle hasn't been on iMPACT.

I still don't purchase their pay per views.

Wow. Such TNAnimosity around here! What the heck!?

They're fucking terrible. That's what the heck.

I used to be one of the more avid TNA fans here and I've completely turned on them over the last year or so. They don't do anything of value IMO.

Joe was one of the my favorite wrestlers when he was first brought in, now he has the title and I couldn't care less about it.

IMO the shows TNA puts on are SO much better than WWE. I prefer the smaller wrestlers and their styles, you know, the wrestlers WWE shits upon? Plus, all my favourite wrestlers are now either at TNA (Christian, Angle) or dead (Benoit, Guerrero), so there is no reason for me to watch the WWE screw up with the careers of good wrestlers (Jericho) and push monstrous men that couldn't wrestle out of a paper bag (Khali, etc).

I've heard that Samoa Joe has gone downhill in the ring since he left ROH. I've only seen him in one ROH match and that was against Homicide...which made me believe Homicide made a mistake moving to TNA.

I didn't see that much that was different with Joe in that match.

To be fair, I don't think folks around here are creaming their pants over the current WWE product, either.

I love Samoa Joe as much as anyone, but I'd say he was more or less phoning it in during his last six months with ROH. And nothing he's done in TNA since leaving ROH has really caught my interest until Lockdown.

Though you can ask the guys here, I was one of the biggest TNA marks about three years ago.

Hell, half of this board (if not more) know each other from talking in a TNA forum elsewhere.

I myself have been loathing TNA in the past year, but the past few weeks have been slow but steady improvement.

When I first started watching TNA, it was awesome stuff. I couldn't wait for Thursday night and that one hour show. Then they went to two hours and I was looking to see if McMahon had purchased TNA -- that's how bad it got and from there it went to worse. Now that Karen Angle has gone missing and Samoa Joe has the title and Booker T is about to take a heel turn, business may pick up but if I see KING Booker come out of all of this it will be time to look up how to make a Vince Russo voodoo doll...

Are they really? It's not like they are letting them loose. Since Russo has started booking there and since they've gone to two hours they've done nothing but squander all of the "smaller guys". Also, Christian might have been better when he first went there, but I'd say that his whole WWE run was better than his TNA stuff. He was completely thrown on the backburner since Angle showed up. Honestly at this point I see Angle as completely useless too. He's not as good in the ring as many give him credit for and honestly if the WWE let him go like they did....there was SOMETHING wrong. I don't see Vince just handing his Main Eventers over to a company that's supposed to be their competition.

Also and I've said this several times here, but if you are expecting wrestling from Khali then you're missing the point completely.

They haven't done anything to "ruin" Jericho either.....he's done a good enough job of that on his own.

I'd say that Christian's run in TNA is arguably better than his WWE run. His WWE run was noteworthy for the awesome tag matches with Edge, none of his singles work there was ever that noteworthy. Christian's rise as a cult fan favorite in 2005 was impressive, him leaving for TNA after WWE decided not to act on it made sense at the time.

As a singles star in TNA, Christian has put together a very nice resume. He delivers almost every time he's put into a main event situation, whether it be against Joe or Angle, and he's done so in a lot of non-gimmick match environments. He just comes off now as having a much more complete worker and has a more accomplished resume than if he'd stayed on Smackdown (of course then some people will argue that nothing that happens in TNA counts, but I don't follow that mind set).

I don't think Angle is all together useless, but he has been over exposed in TNA, and he can't put on consistently great matches like he used to. His Lockdown match with Joe was probably the first Angle match I've really gotten into since his initial matches with Joe in 2006, and maybe one or two outings he had with Christian.

I am a Christian fan and have been for a long time -- must have been those first ladder matches that did the trick. And I think you are correct in that if Christian had stayed with WWE, he would have been just another roster guy and never gotten a big push like he has in TNA.

No matter what you say about Christian, he can wrestle, brawl, whine, cry, be hated, be loved, and is a plus to TNA.

If TNA would continue to push Kaz in a positive way, he would be another great.

And I can't complain enough about the X-Division not being used as it was when the "X-Division" was initiated.

I don't see how you can argue it at all. In the WWE Christian was in more memorable matches when he was in a tag team than he has during his entire TNA run. I'm not saying he wasn't mishandled by the WWE during his run, but he got to TNA, they started giving him the star treatment, and then he got bumped to the background. That is once the WWE rejects came there.

Honestly, I think Christian has devolved a but since starting there. Mainly because in TNA there is virtually NO difference between face and heel. He has never had a strong character in TNA and to be honest, that's his strength. Otherwise he's not that special of a worker. Sure, he busts his ass but I've always thought his moveset was pretty weak and if he can't be a good heel then there is almost no point to him being there.

Maybe not all together useless, but he's been horribly devalued. He's a former shell of himself and he's honestly getting by on reputation at this point. After wrestling Sting and Joe several times there is very little interesting work for him in TNA. Of course that's where bookers come into play, but I'm not expecting them to have a clue in TNA.

I love Christian. I thought it was criminal what the WWE did to him...pushing him as competition to Cena then tossing him aside. In the WWE he was treated as a rookie, an up and comer, a guy who needed more work to make it, even though he had been with the company for years and years. In TNA he is presented like the seasoned performer he is, at the same level as other established wrestlers. I have never been anything but impressed with Christian’s matches since switching to TNA, and the fact that he’s on the backburner now according to DK is not a valid argument. At Lockdown, there were TWO main events. The first one was Team Christian vs Team Tomko, a feud that has been dominating TNA for some months now, and the second was Angle vs Joe. This indicates to me that TNA is putting as much importance on Christian’s feud as they are Angle’s.

DK also pointed out that Christian’s strength is his character, not his wrestling. This is mostly true, IMO, in TNA, where there are slew of very good wrestlers; Angle, Joe, Sting, any of the X Division guys, Booker, etc etc. However, when Christian was in WWE, he was one of the better wrestlers by far, up there with, again, Angle, Benoit, Guerrero, Jericho etc. And we all know how well the WWE treated everyone on THAT list (with the exception of Angle).

Jericho should be treated the same way, IMO, but never will be because he’s a) Canadian (that’s a WHOLE other rant for another day) and B) small. That Jericho chose to rejoin the WWE instead of going to TNA was his own mistake, and a big one, at that.

Anyway, I agree with DK once again about Angle’s feud options being slim right now, but I’m looking forward to seeing what they’ll do with him.

I’d like to add that I never NEVER liked Booker in the WWE. He was annoying and his wrestling moveset seemed truncated to me. I must say that since seeing his work in TNA I have grown to appreciate the guy a lot more.

Also, TNA has an incredible women’s division, untouchable by WWE. It’s clear that while the WWE hires women for their looks and considers wrestling talent a bonus, TNA hires women for their talent and considers their looks a bonus. I even like Angelina Love and that other thing she wrestles with, and anyone who knows me from another board will tell you I HATE skanky women wreslters. Well, Love and whateverhernameisthatican’tremembernow are just as skanky as any of the WWE whores, but they can WRESTLE. And do you think WWE would ever hire Kong? ODB? O, but wait! They DID hire ODB. They shoved her into OVW and told her to lose some weight. *rolls eyes*

Booker is one of those guys that I always seem to enjoy more than I would expect myself to. He was an above average worker in his prime, but he's been broken down over the last few years. Even with that in mind, I still dig the guy. His matches still hold some level of interest, despite usually not being anything special. I think retirement would probably be his best bet at this point, but I still get entertainment from him.

Agreed with Jillie on all points regarding Christian.

Jillie, I just wanted to say this before I get into the discussion since you seem like a good person and someone that wants to contribute here. Don't take the shit I say as a slight to you. Sometimes I come off pretty abrasive. Also, I'm telling you this here because you're new and I don't want to chase you away from here because you think I'm an asshole. Everyone else here pretty much knows me already and nobody takes it personally. Ask Rowe how many wrestling arguments we've had!

I wouldn't go as far to say it was "criminal". There was never a point where he should have been booked over Cena. The thing that annoyed me was when he was finally going to get his shot, they threw Jericho in the mix for pretty much no reason. TNA certainly showed him in the right light when he first came in. Hell, he even dragged a excellent match out of Monty Brown. Let me ask you this then Jillie. What has been so great about his matches in TNA? He can't work face or heel, so everything is jumbled and basically done for no reason. Plus, he hasn't had ONE rival in the company that has elevated him (See Joe/Angle for an example of this. When they first started feuding Joe was elevated big time...although they fucked it up.) and he was treated like a joke for sometime. Kind of like when he was facing Joe or playing games with AJ being his little buddy. It's been established that comedy acts don't draw and they were dangerously close to throwing Christian into that. Him being on the backburner is a completely valid argument. When he was brought in he was a fucking STAR. Then because of all of the other rejects coming in and getting immediate pushes over him it made him look like a chump. It's bad booking really. The only reason why Christian's match was given the M.E. treatment was because of all of the participants in one match. Also make no mistake about it, Christian was feuding with a guy thats basically a tag wrestler. That doesn't say push to the moon to me.

First off, I find it disturbing that anyone considers Booker or half of the x-division to be good. Honestly, when Christian was with the WWE I wouldn't consider him to EVER be among the top 10 workers in the company. Also, I dont see where you are complaining about the treatment of wrestlers either. Benoit was the World Champion who beat out HHH/HBK in the Wrestlemania MAIN EVENT. Guerrero was given the ball to run with and ran out of steam. Christ, the guy MADE JBL. Plus Eddie was a multiple time Tag and IC champion. Jericho was the first ever UNDISPUTED champion and holds the record for IC runs. So where is the shitty treatment? Sure I'd like to have seen Benoit be champion for 10 years, but it's not going to happen. They were transitional champions during their reigns and although I love the guys to death they aren't going to draw big money on top as stars. Plus, they were great for making people on their roster look good, which is why they weren't always needed in the Main Event picture. But look how it worked out when JBL/Eddie feuded. It was lucky that it worked out that way, but it still showed you Eddie's strengths.

WTF? Canadian? They really squandered that Bret Hart guy. He would have been much more successful if he was from somewhere else. Why is it a mistake for Jericho to choose the WWE over TNA? Maybe he wanted to wrestle somewhere that people actually care about. Maybe he wanted to wrestle in front of more than 2,000 people. Maybe he wanted to wrestle for a company that's going to give him opportunities to make money well after he's retired? Bottom line is this. In the wrestling business the guys are there to make MONEY. If you think anything else you're either disillusioned or you're a mark.

Honestly though what are you looking forward to? I doubt they'd put him in there with anyone that's not on his level of the card to try and build their own stars. The best bet with someone like him is to have him feud with a Bobby Roode type wrestler where you can see what you really have with him. Angle would either expose him as a wrestler or show you that he's a hell of lot better than people think.

Booker sucks, he's sucked for a LOOOOOONG time. I dug the character of King Booker but he was a total shell of himself. He honestly should retire at this point. I don't know how anyone would like his TNA work as it's the worst I've seen from him in sometime.

UGH. Now this is where the conversation is gonna get ugly because you're female. Women's wrestling in the US period is a fucking joke. It's been that way since the 80's and it's even worse now. The WWE uses their Divas as a selling point. They want them to be appealing in a swimsuit contest as much as they would be in the ring. Is that ok? Sure it is, because they aren't selling it as wrestling. TNA on the other hand features women on their programs as wrestlers and honestly, it's fucking awful. The only woman that could probably work a half decent match is Gail Kim and that's a maybe. Kong is good for her character, but there are chicks in Japan that would fucking murder her in the ring, and I'm talking chicks that are 130 lbs. Also once again, I find it disturbing that you think those two blonds (Love and the other one that neither of us could think of her name) can wrestle worth a shit. They suck ass, period.

Tons! DK is a blast to discuss wrestling with.

Bah, no worries, DK. You’re cool in my books. Anyone that can intelligently argue their point without throwing around insults is cool.

Before I continue, though, I should tell you that my wrestling experience is limited and my arguments are relative. I understand there is a legitimately good women’s movement in Japan and whatnot, but I’ve never seen it. I’ve watched a handful of JAPW and ROH matches. My wrestling experience is limited to the WWE’s Attitude Era and beyond, and TNA for the last few years. I watched virtually no WCW or ECW when it was around, and certainly no overseas stuff.

Up until a few years ago, I was an avid WWE fan. Things that have happened in the company since then have soured it for me. I switched to TNA to see something new and I have not looked back. My biggest problem with the WWE, I will admit, is the politics and Vince McMahon’s shenanigans. I am, as I said, a fan of the smaller wrestlers, the high-flyers, and the smaller technical wrestlers. I don’t enjoy the old-school Hogan and Warrior era of wrestling. I don’t enjoy hardcore very much (there is a time and place for it, but I, for example, can rarely watch an Abyss match the whole way through). I also enjoy the fun sense of humour the roster at TNA seems to have, as opposed to the silly antics and the lameness of the WWE (I’m not saying TNA doesn’t have lameness, either (see Young, Eric or Boy, Shark), just that it seems their humour is usually more up my ally than not).


Anyway, back to the argument at hand…

I’m not a very qualified wrestling critic or anything, but I love Christian’s matches because they are always interesting. They keep me engaged. They are suspenseful. They are part of a story that will be altered by the outcome of the match. Don’t get me wrong, I think TNA screwed up with the Christian Coalition, but I mostly think they screwed up with AJ, not Christian. AJ should have been (and should continue to be) treated more seriously. Christian’s character is the same basic character he has always had and it works for him.

I believe Benoit and Guerrero were amazingly under-used and under-appreciated. Yes, they both got to be World Champions. But when the fans were chanting for Benoit and Guerrero, and Christian and Jericho for that matter, the WWE put the title on John Cena who, at the time, couldn’t get a pop to save his life. I suppose I’d agree that earlier in their careers the aforementioned wrestlers were treated well, even in the WWE. But why were they pushed aside and treated like jokes in the last few years? It makes no sense.

The Canadian argument is a long one, but to make it a short story, I really think Vince McMahon has something against Canadians. When was the last time a Canadian was in the main event? Maybe it’s because most Canadian wrestlers are not the big brutes that McMahon favours these days. I don’t know. I have a soft spot for the Canadians, being so myself, and it just seems like they are never given their dues in the WWE these days. Or it could be paranoia.

As for the money argument, I totally agree. Jericho made the decision that will keep him and his family comfortably fed and sheltered for the rest of his life. I guess if that’s what makes him happy, kudos for him. I just think it’s a mistake career wise. He’s just going to be buried and under-booked. But again, I guess if he’s happy with that, kudos.

I’m going to skip over Angle and Booker because I don’t have much more to say about that.

As for the women’s division argument, I will direct you back to my initial statement about my wrestling experience, which is, I will remind you, thin. I don’t remember the women in the 80s, and every other female wrestler since the attitude era has either needed huge tits or steroids to make it in the WWE. At least in TNA they are hiring women for their wrestling ability rather than their looks. I certainly understand they are not the most talented women in the world, and I agree with you a hundred fold about women’s wrestling in North America being a joke. But in my experience the Knockouts are a LOT better than the Divas. And even if they are not more talented than the Trish Stratuses, Litas, Beth Phoenixes, or Nattie Neidharts of the world, they are at least allowed to WRESTLE, instead of being reduced to pillow fights.

Anyway, maybe we should start a OAO WWE vs TNA thread. Haha.

Welp let me get into this convo.

(Let me preface by saying that The Fuj is also known as the Devil's advocate in some circles.)

While I agree that Christian shouldnt of been booked over Cena, Chistian should of been booked stronger vs. Cena. It was programming Cena with Christian and Jericho (2 smark darlings) that led to the initial cracks in Cena's armor way back in 05. Nobody wanted to see Cage and Y2J treated like chumps, cuz they both could talk circles around Cena, and could back it up in the ring whereas Cena was all gimmick at the time and got better with time. Both got verbally castrated in the 1 MONTH feud.

Cage wasn't one of the better workers in the WWE when he was there. It was TNA that allowed him to really flesh out his moveset, he had the stigma of the "TAG moveset" and no definite finisher. TNA has given him that, and he has been consistent the whole 2+ years he has been there with 3-4* matches every time on PPV.

We can go back and forth about Benoit being champ, or Eddie being an epic FAIL with his run. Benoi was semi main the whole summer of 04 due to the never ending saga of HBK/HHH, while Eddie cried about being champ and gave it to JBL. I wouldn't call it MAKING him either. JBL didn't gain cred until he LOST the belt and people went "...alright. It wasn't that bad." He drew horribly, almost as bad as Nash, and got over by never shutting up and making money legit outside of WWE television.

I agree with Booker being a shell, but he always worked up the level of his opponent. Hence the great matches with Benoit in 98, but shitty ones with Cena in 04-05. The King gimmick was a good move, and made him marketable again, and he made it work through sheer force of will. (said earlier)

About women's wrestling. I like what TNA is doing. I like it alot. They have good girls there. Between Kim/Kong/ODB/Roxxi/Melissa they can build something great. You don't want the GLOW treatment, but at the same time you don't want "super joshi" Of course there are girls that will wrestling circles around them, but in the context of what they are doing for a North American audience its LIGHT YEARS ahead of what the fed is doing.

Angelina Love's partner is the fine...fine..finefinefinefine Talia Madison/Velvet Sky.

Yum.

Cool. I can tell that you'll fit in here nicely. Good job so far on taking part in so much discussion in such a short amount of time. We've needed some more posters like you here for a while.

Well, then because of that I'm starting to see where you are coming from. Although if you are interested I can point you in the right direction on some great Japan stuff that you can watch for free on YouTube. I think if you actually got to experience some of it you might think what you are seeing isn't so great, especially when it comes to good/great workers. Same thing with watching some great old school stuff.

See, although I think they've had some talent there x-division wise, I feel like they've squandered it horribly over the last year or so. Probably even before that if I think about it. The old school stuff is great, but Hogan/Warrior won't give you an idea of just how great it is. I'll tell you this though, go back and check out Flair/Steamboat and stuff in the like and you'll see what great storytelling and excellent work is. There are also some others like Terry Funk, Jumbo Tsuruta, and Harley Race that will teach you a lot just by watching some of the stuff they do. Liking the smaller guys is cool too (check my name here and you'll see I'm a fan as well), but I just think that a LOT of smaller guys have no clue what the hell they're doing in there.

I totally agree that they've screwed up AJ big time. The guy is a total comedy act now and at one time he was TNA's most decorated champion. Personally I think they've screwed up Christian by making him play second fiddle to guys like Angle and Joe. Although I could understand that in other companies, they should have put guys like Christian over Angle.

This is going to make me sound like an asshole, but whatever. Fans in general are stupid. 9 times out of 10 they are just reacting to stuff happening. Stuff like TV ratings and PPV buyrates are way more important to the pop of a crowd. Like when someone is booed to holy hell in somewhere like Philly or NYC, but everywhere else they are cheered.

Personally, I never thought that Benoit/Eddie were treated as a joke. Although Benoit was depushed before his life ended he was being used pretty good, which was to make guys look good and credible. That's something that not too many people ever could do. Bret and Benoit are two that immediately come to mind. Jericho on the other hand was a joke, but that was all of his doing. Before he took his hiatus he was just coasting along with the same bland character he had been working for years. Plus, he's always worked better as a chickenshit, agititating heel.

Paranoia would most likely be it. Honestly in the history of wrestling how many great Canadians have their been? Nothing against our friends from the North, but there have been way more American's on top.

Plus, Edge is from Canada and he's been the best heel in wrestling now for years.

I agree completely here. Sometimes people put their pride aside to feed their families. That's their choice and although some of us might think wrestling glory is more important than that show the fact that deep down, we're all still sort of marks.

Honestly, if you watched some stuff from Japan, you would see where I'm coming from. Although I'll say this, it's okay that you enjoy it. I just don't understand it personally. I will say this about the Divas compared to the knockouts. The WWE draws regardless of what they are doing, at least at this point because nobody else is on their level in the US. TNA NEEDS to draw. I dont see how giving the chicks time on their program is warranted because NOBODY cares. Sure people might enjoy watching the matches, but it's not selling their PPV's to ANYONE. That's TNA's bottom line right now and they should really figure out where they have to maximize and where they have to minimize.

Sure. But

:( <----TNA

:lol: <----WWE

Honestly I felt the whole time that Jericho didn't belong anywhere in there. They were concerned that Christian/Cena couldn't draw. That's just about the only reason I see for them to do what they did. Personally, I don't think they can talk circles around Cena. Cena actually has some reigns on him and what he can say since he's all "WWE #1 guy" and shit. If he was let loose, I'm thinking Cena would easily be one of the best promo guys in the business today...and I'm talking without the scripted bullshit too.

I still dont see Christian as having a great or effective moveset. Mainly because he should always be a heel and taking an ass whipping. I've always hated his shitty finisher and I'm shocked they didn't try and change it in TNA. He's been alright in TNA, but consistent isn't the word I would use.

I would easily call it making JBL. If it wasn't for Eddie putting him over there is no way he'd have been credible. Eddie made him look like fucking gold in the ring, especially after their first match where Eddie lost so much blood he had to be taken to the hospital. Sure he drew horribly, but that's like saying that Backlund losing to Nash in 8 seconds wasn't effective. It put him over, immediately as someone you need to watch out for. People just weren't accepting of JBL because they were bitter over Eddie losing the belt (myself included), but after the title was taken from him people started to get into his character.

I would completely disagree with that. Remember when Booker/Benoit had their WWE best of seven on Smackdown. Benoit was having a hard time pulling a good match out of him....that's right, BENOIT.

To me that's like saying that the turd you left is better than mine because it's bigger. In the end it's all shit. I'll tell you this RIGHT NOW, the reason why women's wrestling in the US isn't anything like Joshi is because of two reasons. One, because T&A (NOT TNA) sells and second, because the guys would have to work up to that level or be overshadowed. We both know that'll never happen.

I won't argue with that though....