Now I know you are just going to think me bias but i have just watched this and I thought it was excellent. Well written, well acted by everyone concerned, especially Spiner who seems to be playing the ancestor of Dr Soong as somewhat Hanibal Lecter ish!!!

My only real complaint would be that once again Archer finds himself held hostige but as the captain of the ship I guess this will keep happening.

Cannot wait for next weeks episode.

EXCELLENT EXCELLENT EXCELLENT!!!!!!

I wasn't much for this one I must admit. On the positive side it was nice to see Spiner again, after the disappointment of Nemesis, and the Orions were interesting, but the story itself I just couldn't get into at all. It just seemed very flat to me. With it being the first of a three parter I'm hoping that things pick up for the second chapter.

Yes it was great to see B.S. again but there was nothing wrong with NEMESIS that replacing everything that was cut out of it would put right!!! :lol: :lol:

I think we can agree to disagree on Nemesis Ken ;)

after all the discussions we have had in the past yes I think so.

I am sorry you didnt seem to enjoy this episode though as I thought it was very good.

After Space Seed and TWOK I was expecting a little more. Perhaps it'll pick up over the next couple, I just got the distinct impression that this one was a little average.

Bored now. Were this any other series, I'd have given up on it.

While saying Spiner was 'wasted' is a bit extreme - to be honest I'm bored of him after the TNG movies turned into the 'Picard and Data Smile Time Hour', I think he was completely surplus to requirements, and Soong was an unnecessary piece of fanwank.

sorry just cannot see why you are bored.

must be just a question of taste.

Babylon 5 TKO was boring Enterprise is excellent!!!!!

Ken,

TKO is boring, but that's one of the worst episodes produced for the entire series. If you're talking about it in the same sentence as the latest 'golden' batch of Enterprise I'd find that a little worrying in itself.

Season 3 of Enterprise was a massive step up from what had gone before it over the first couple of seasons, but year four isn't getting going at all.

Look at other shows and what they'd achieved by their fourth season; TNG, B5, Farscape, The XF, Buffy, Angel.

I disagree, I think season 4 so far has been very good and has continued to improve on what has gone before.

Sure it is not a patch on NEXT GEN season 4 but nothing is.

Media and fan reaction alike would disagree with you thus far Ken ;)

Oh well never mind. :lol: :D ;)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm bored as this episode was (to be honest) crap. It's dealing in fanwanky stories that really aren't necessary, and forcing in guest stars which only appeal to Trekkies (I mean, what else has Brent Spiner done that will attract people who aren't Trek fans?), and dealing with a storyline which has been done far better in past episodes. When will Enterprise give me something original?

And while B5 was bad, that was just one episode, and there have been several episodes which have proved it's good. Compare this to Season 4 of Enterprise - of the 4 episodes broadcast so far, only Home has had any impact. At least Storm Front had the excuse that Manny Coto was lumbered with the Alien Nazi story which he didn't really want....

And I wouldn't talk about taste when every episode of Enterprise you watch is 'excellent' and you 'can't see why people don't watch it'. Criticism is always a good remedy for potential sycophanism (is that a word?) :)

Not every episode is excellent. I can think of a few in seasons 1+2 I didnt say that too.

I just think on a whole seasons 3+4 have been

I'm not sure I'd quite say excellent for season 3. A vast improvement to be sure, but with Voyager, over recent years, perhaps expectations have been lowered somewhat. Season 4, I'm still finding it extremely difficult to get into I'm afraid.

Maybe you are resigned to it being the last season or something like that?

I for one look forward all week to the next episode and I will watch them all again when they finally get onto sky 1.

I do not understand what you mean by original Philip? What exactly are you wanting that can be done 'within' the framework that is STARTREK and if in Enterprise that can be done without spoiling the continuity that has already been set up?

I dont think only home has had impact the two episodes with Brent Spiner have been very good and yes I know I am bias (but no more than others are for their favourite show or actually against TREK as some people are) and yes I know his inclusion is an act of desperation but if the powers that be dont do things 'aimed' at the fans what else can they do. Loads of people in the US want Kirk bringing back in some form ( I dont think he should ever have been killed) so it is understandable if somehow they manage to do that as well.

As I said, while I accept that I am bias towards trek (and DR WHO actually) I dont accept that I am any more so then other people are towards their shows.

Given that though Ken, why bother doing Enterprise in the first place ??

The limitations of Enterprise's premise and timeframe needn't be constraints, it just means that to achieve creative freedom, originality of thought and quality writing is needed. Sadly Enterprise, for the most part has failed to live up to expectations.

My ambivalence towards the show comes of the back of Enterprise putting out it's best year, only to then take a massively retrogressive step in the wrong direction. At times, this season, tonewise has felt more like Season 1 than Season 4.

If this is what we've got to look forward to then I'm afraid I won't be too sorry to see it go. We still have BSG and SG1 afterall, both of which are in an elevated class of storytelling.

I dont see where the wrong step this season is. The stories are clearly better than in season 1+2 and the acting has certainly improved. What are you comparing it too? Its definately better than Voyager.

As for BSG and Stargate, I cannot really judge as I havent watched BSG at all and as for Stargate I keep meaning to start watching the dvd's I bought I never seem to have the time.

If it does infact go I shall probably go into mourning until STAR TREK returns in one form or another

That's hardly a guarantee of quality though Ken ;)

Perhaps Trek's simply got complacent, compared with other similar-premised shows, it just comes off as second best. SG1 for example has been going for nearly eight years now, yet still achieves more originality than Enterprise is managing after half that.

Enterprise is better than Voyager, but it's still relatively poor.

As I said I cannot comment on SG1 after only seeing the film and the pilot episode of the series.

I think ENTERPRISE is given more than its fair share of criticism purely because it is TREK. (I dont mean by you I mean by people in general) Yes maybe that fact has also saved it in places but on the whole I think some peoples expectations are too high just because of the history that goes before it.

ENTERPRISE for me is the first series since NEXT GEN to stick to the original TREK ideal and that is probably why I like it as much as I do. I dont expect complete originality because I expect it to stay within the TREK framework and wouldnt want it to do otherwise. (Yes I know Voyager also did to an extent but for some reason especially in the first couple of seasons that still didnt feel right.) That is probably also why I dont like DS9.

Its just a matter of taste and expectations I guess.

Personally I don't think the Star Trek name has helped Enterprise too much. They originally went without the Star Trek umbrella title, and then when ratings were on the slide they reintroduced it, to no great effect. The only people who're going to watch a Star Trek show are Star Trek fans. A problem that the franchise has faced since the heady days of TNG, it's very difficult bringing new fans to the party.

There's not much real difference between Enterprise and Voyager's fortunes, the latter however had a safety net of sorts that Enterprise does not have. Voyager was unveiled as the flagship show for the then fledgling UPN network. UPN cancelled pretty much every other show they commissioned that first couple of years, except Voyager, whose ratings were no greater than the shows that had bit the bullet. The only thing that saved Voyager was the fact that it would have been too embarassing to cancel it. Enterprise doesn't enjoy that luxury unfortunately.

Enterprise takes a lot of stick, most of it warranted to be fair, but it would probably have been given a greater degree of leniency had Voyager not disappointed so much. Nemesis did it no favours either. I know you love it Ken, but you're an exception. The critics slammed it and the audience, the ones that did actually go and see it were equally unconvinced.

Exectations are a dangerous thing. After TNG and DS9 most Trek fans would likely think that Berman and Co could do no wrong. Putting out a mediocre series then can do little but disappoint. An important thing that a lot of Trek's hardcore fandom has lost however is hope. Only a very small element now actually believe that there's the opportunity for anything better, anytime soon. Sadly, I'd have to concur with that assessment.

Maybe the best thing we can all do is stop comparing show against show and just enjoy TREK for what it is, B5 for what it is, Stargate for what it is etc etc etc.

Impossible to judge a show on it's merits if you have no frame of reference though Ken ;)

Watched 'Borderland' last night.

It was ok. Nothing more. In fact, there were some things which I found rather disappointing.

For me, the appearance of Spiner was neither here nor there. I thought getting him in was a bit of a gimmick, and so it was. It was nice to see him, but he wasn't asked to do anything that couldn't have been done by anyone else.

The disappointments. I loved 'Space Seed' and I loved TWOK. I also enjoyed Greg Cox's two part novel series about the Eugenics Wars. So I was anticipating a story line which dealt with the whole Khan thing. Lets hope the next two parts are better as this was a bit of a let down. The actors that played Soong's 'children' were, IMO, extremely unconvincing.

I also felt a bit let down by the Orion Syndicate. We've heard so many snippets of information about the Orions, and I was hoping for a lot more when we finally did get to see them. All very well seeing the slave girl for the T & A factors, but there is a lot of scope for portraying the Orions with a lot of subtlety and originality, not just as thuggish sub-Ferengi types. As for the whole slave market scenes. Well, been there done that loads of times with loads of different races.

All in all, if this is what season 4 has to offer us, then no wonder Enterprise was cancelled. Yes, it was enjoyable in its own way, but nothing to write home about. I like it, but I demand more.

Andrew (HM) :upside:

Must be me. I thought that this was quite a good episode. Good to see Brent Spiner playing against type. I know a lot of people complained about bringing Spiner in but it doesn't bother me. After all, TNG wasn't above using Spock, McCoy and Scotty, Voyager had Sulu and Riker and even DS9 had Kirk and crew. I know they the last two were specials but even so Trek has never worried about pinching characters from other series.

Interested to see how this works out, I suppose knowing Enterprise has been cancelled tends to numb the critical faculty somewhat

Don't get me wrong, I did enjoy it, it was just that knowing that we were finally going to get to see the Orions, and have some more stuff about the Eugenics thing, I think I was just expecting too much.

Fair point about borrowing characters between Treks, but I was unsure whether using Spiner as an ancestor of Soong was a clever move, or one that smacked of desperation for ratings. After all, it does make a kind of sense that Noonian Soong's ancestor could have been involved in the Eugenics business. After all, the Doctor Soong we know was doing the same thing, after a fashion, in trying to improve on humanity. Not to mention his obvious egocentricity in making his creations look exactly like younger versions of himself!

On a lighter note, I'm glad it's not just me and Ken that are actually enjoying season 4 of Enterprise in some small way! Beginning to feel part of a tiny minority here! Mind you, there are 18 episodes to go, and things can change of course!

Andrew (HM) :upside:

Hi Andrew

I haven't looked at any spoilers about S4 so I didn't know the Orions or the Euigenics war were featured. Blessed are they that expect nothing, for they shall never be disappointed.

I suppose TPTB know that the fans love crossovers. I'm sure Unification , a deeply disappointing episode, in my view, was done just please to the fans. I was eagerly looking forward to seeing Spock with Picard.

Looking forward to the next two episodes.

I hate spoilers too, but I find it difficult to avoid certain things. How did you manage to avoid that! I have no idea where I picked up that info from to be honest. But still. Mind you, you only have to walk into a newsagents and get a glimpse of the latest Star Montly cover to realise that the Orions would be in Enterprise at some point. Not that I'm saying I bought a copy of the Star Trek magazine because of the cover of course! Mind you, the slave girl is a very fetching shade of green!

I agree about 'Unification'... I can't quite put my finger on why I was so disappointed in it, but I was. It should have been so much better than it was. As you say, it was probably done just to please the fans. I'd much rather the creators/producers of a show would have the confidence not to worry about the demands of the fans, and follow their own vision of what should be done with their show. Mostly, it will be better than it would be if they followed the demands of the fans!

Andrew (HM) :upside:

Must be my rural lifestyle :lol:

I live in a little village and I'd have to get the car out if I wanted to go to the local newsagents, which is full of kids wrecking the papers and a lot of people just treating it like a reding library. At w**k I'd have to take a ten minute drive each way to the nearest WHS and then have to pay parking. Even then I doubt that they would sell Trek stuff.