1 Doppelgangland
2 The Gift
3 Graduation Day pt2
4 Once More With Feeling
5 Restless
6 Passion
7 Hush
8 Becoming pt2
9 School Hard
10 Intervention
11 Phases
12 Earshot
13 Whats My Line pt1
14 When She Was Bad
15 Lovers Walk
16 No Place Like Home
17 Who Are You
18 Revelations
19 Bad Girls
20 The Wish
21 Prophecy Girl
22 Enemies
23 Dirty Girls
24 The Prom
25 The Initiative
26 Real Me
27 The Freshman
28 Becoming pt1
29 Welcome To The Hellmouth
30 Ted
31 Witch
32 Whats My Line pt2
33 Innocence
34 This Years Girl
35 Halloween
36 Lie To Me
37 Blood Ties
38 A New Man
39 Surprise
40 Chosen
41 Anne
42 Angel
43 Normal Again
44 The Harvest
45 Consequences
46 Helpless
47 Choices
48 Tough Love
49 Reptile Boy
50 Bewitched Bothered And Bewildered
51 Pangs
52 Primeval
53 Homecoming
54 The Replacement
55 Spiral
56 Fool For Love
57 End Of Days
58 Crush
59 Never Kill A Boy On The First Date
60 Selfless
61 Faith Hope and Trick
62 I Only Have Eyes For You
63 Conversations With Dead People
64 The Body
65 Tabula Rasa
66 Something Blue
67 Sleeper
68 The Weight Of The World
69 Two To Go
70 Grave
71 Fear Itself
72 Never Leave Me
73 Dead Mans Party
74 Seeing Red
75 Entropy
76 Villains
77 The Yoko Factor
78 Storyteller
79 Nightmares
80 Life Serial
81 Some Assembly Required
82 Lessons
83 The Harsh Light Of Day
84 First Date
85 Gingerbread
86 The Zeppo
87 Lies My Parents Told Me
88 Triangle
89 Help
90 Checkpoint
91 Amends
92 Living Conditions
93 Bring On The Night
94 Doomed
95 Bad Eggs
96 Out Of Mind Out Of Sight
97 Go Fish
98 Beneath You
99 Touched
100 Graduation Day pt1
101 The I In Team
102 Him
103 Bargaining pt1
104 Inca Mummy Girl
105 Killed By Death
106 Band Candy
107 New Moon Rising
108 The Dark Age
109 Get It Done
110 I Was Made To Love You
111 Same Time Same Place
112 Beauty And The Beasts
113 The Puppet Show
114 Buffy Vs Dracula
115 Potential
116 Shadow
117 Listening To Fear
118 Family
119 Afterlife
120 Dead Things
121 The Killer In Me
122 Wild At Heart
123 The Pack
124 Where The Wild Things Are
125 Showtime
126 Forever
127 Goodbye Iowa
128 Out Of My Mind
129 Gone
130 Empty Places
131 Bargaining pt2
132 Flooded
133 All The Way
134 I Robot You Jane
135 Smashed
136 Older And Far Away
137 As You Were
138 Hells Bells
139 Teachers Pet
140 Into The Woods
141 Doublemeat Palace
142 Superstar
143 Beer Bad
144 Wrecked

I have moved a few. The Freshman, Where The Wild Things Are and New Moon Rising up a bit. Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered, The Yoko Factor and Superstar down a bit.

I find I am still changing my mind after the rewatches. sk

chosen is 40 :blink:

the body 64 :o

i like you top 10 until intervention :ermm:

I remain unconvinced by Chosen so putting it very high up just would not make sense. There are loads of other episodes I would rather watch. The slightly overblown female empowerment story is a bit much as well though it does allow for the ingenious happy ending for Buffy.

The Body I find a bit manipulative which I suppose is the point but it is not what I watch the show for hence I would rather watch a host of other episodes higher than it. One thing that really irritates me is the sort of 'extended family' reaction of the other scoobies about Joyce's death. Nobody cares about anybody elses Mum as there is no emotional investment involved. There should be sympathy and understanding but nothing more than that.

What I always thought was quite clever about Joss was his appreciation that people with dysfunctional families will try to find compensatory relationships but they will not extend into the other persons family ie your friends Mum will not become a surrogate Mum.

Intervention is what I watch the show for. It is a delightful study in obsession and how trying to realise that obsession can result in unintended consequences. Spike's thwarted desires manifest themselves in a hilarious manner. The Buffybot is instantly convincing and the interactions with the undiscriminating scoobies are a hoot. sk

re: the body, we have seen xander's parents, a bit of willow's ................ not the perfect parents

i think after a while (well 5 years), giles was like a father for them and joyce like a mother (even if joyce tried to seduce xander in BBB :lol: ) but they did look confortable with her at the end of killed by death and in the christmas flashback (even if in amends, everyone was on their own on christmas night) :unsure:

Up to 1990 I went to my best friends house for tea every Thursday but the idea I developed anything more than a cursory relationship with his parents would be patently ridiculous. There is the Hegelian idea about a 'union of hearts' but that only operates within a family. I suppose there are the exceptional circumstances in Buffy but I still feel there is scant evidence for some kind of special relationship with Joyce.

At the end of Killed By Death all Joyce shows is that she is a very accommodating Mum who is willing to indulge her daughters and friends every whim.

I must admit the Christmas flashback is slightly more persuasive evidence but even then from the evidence of Killed By Death Joyce would have been the ever accommodating hostess and nothing more than that.

Giles was the obi-wan-kenobi mentor of the group being something of a conservative connection to the past but he was intimately involved in Buffy's trials and tribulations unlike Joyce who was the irritating outsider who was about as clued in as someone who still owns Betamax. sk

A couple of my friends were in floods of tears at my Dad's funeral. The way I see it, it was less to do with how they felt about my father and more about how much they care for me. I guess it depends how close your friends are.

I think The Body is a stunning episode - one of the best. But I have only been able to watch it two or three times. Too many of the emotions in it are too close to home, for me.

Same for me. I've seen The Body at most 2 times and find it far too close to home to ever think of watching it. One of the most powerful hours of television ever but not one I'm ever likely to watch again.

I missed this post before. I'm with Steve and Paul, I have always been close to my friend's parents, a few of them came to our wedding. I would be devastated no doubt.

Some interesting replies.

What I had not thought about is how you might relate to your friends parents as an adult. I suppose once you have grown up there is much more chance of having something like a relationship of equals when you talk to your friends parents. Most of my 'friends' deserted me once I became ill so it is something I have never had to think about or experience.

I suppose I was thinking about the feelings you have as a child and teenager when a parent is just another authority figure.

The above posts suggest there might be some degree of emotional authenticity in what Joss was trying to achieve. Some sort of vicarious empathy might be going on.

I am still not totally convinced. sk

The Body is very powerful I have seen it 3 times and cry every time I watch the reason it's so hard to watch is because it has something anyone who has lost some one can relate to for me it was the monent Buffy stands at her back door and hears the world going on as "normal" outside.

don't think top 10 and worse 10 are much different from last time :rolleyes:

1/becoming 2 - 2/the gift 3/omwf 4/passion 5/chosen 6/the body 7/CWDP 8/hush 9/school hard 10/doppelgangland

11/prophecy girl 12/becoming 1 - 13/dirty girls 14/tabula rasa 15/normal again 16/who are you 17/the harvest 18/lover's walk 19/grad day part one 20/choices

21/angel 22/selfless 23/beneath you 24/help 25/lessons 26/LMPTM 27/end of days

28/grad day two 29/this year girl 30/something blue 31/when she was bad 32/welcome to the hellmouth 33/the zeppo 34/the wish 35/the prom 36/surprise 37/halloween 38/enemies 39/fool for love 40/checkpoint 41/entropy


42/forever 43/no place like home 44/intervention 45/the initiative 46/the dark age 47/the yoko factor 48/real me 49/seeing red 50/storyteller 51/after life 52/life serial 53/same time same place 54/touched 55/showtime


56/the harsh light of day 57/new moon rising 58/doomed 59/some assembly requested 60/NKABOTFD 61/lie to me 62/innocence 63/i only have eyes for you 64/earshot 65/band candy 66/amends 67/blood ties 68/the weight of the world 69/villains 70/a new man 71/tough love 72/dead things 73/superstar 74/primeval 75/WML 1 - 76/the puppet show 77/the pack


78/killed by death 79/consequences 80/BBB 81/bring on the night 82/the killer in me 83/bargaining one 84/shadow 85/crush 86/flooded 87/two to go 88/restless 89/fear itself 90/revelations 91/phases 92/helpless 93/beauty and the beasts 94/bad girls 95/the replacement 96/family 97/triangle 98/spiral 99/potential


100/Hell's bells 101/never leave me 102/first date 103/wild at heart 104/WML 2 - 105/witch 106/faith hope and trick 107/into the wood 108/listening to fear 109/bargaining two 110/gone 111/as you were 112/pangs 113/nightmares 114/homecoming 115/anne


116/grave 117/sleeper 118/empty places 119/older and far away 120/teacher's pet 121/get it done 122/him 123/wrecked 124/i was made to love you 125/smashed 126/the I in team 127/freshman 128/beer bad 129/OOMOOS 130/go fish 131/dead man party 132/buffy vs dracula 133/good by iowa 134/ted



135/all the way 136/living conditions 137/reptile boy 138/inca mummy girl 139/i robot you jane 140/gingerbread 141/bad eggs 142/out of my mind 143/WTWTA 144/double meat palace

My inner nerd is satiated. :nerd:

It is fascinating how people have different feelings about the same 'experience'. We are about the same age prophecy girl but we are slightly different people. At least we agree on top 10 material like Becoming pt2. One of Kant's very controversial arguments goes something along the lines that if we put 'self-interest' aside we should have more or less the same aesthetic experiences ie there should be an element of objectivity in how we feel. Kant also offers a counter argument scouting how people feel very differently about the same 'experience'. It is fascinating and still controversial. See Roger Scruton's priceless defence of Kant on aesthetics in his Modern Philosophy.

I will comment on a few things in your list. I personally rate WTTH above TH because the former seems to have all the best lines while the latter is more action orientated. I prefer the jokes. Do you prefer action?

I will pick a few I feel you are very harsh on these being Restless, Bad Girls, The Replacement, Faith Hope and Trick, Anne, Ted and Reptile Boy.

If I had to pick one episode that I feel you are giving a raw deal to it has to be The Freshman. Max was right when she said it is top 10 material though I am not quite that enthusiastic. I sincerely believe it is an expression of Joss genius and one of the best of S4.

I think one of the differences between us is that you are willing to give the better efforts of S6 and S7 a great deal of credit whereas I am more critical. It is noteworthy, for instance, that you rank Chosen, CWDP, Selfless, Beneath You, Help, Lessons, LMPTM and End Of Days quite highly. The professionalism of S7 is something special as you perhaps hint. Maybe S7 as a whole is less than the sum of its parts so the individual efforts rank highly.

Similarly, but ultimately the other way round, the genius aspects of S2 such as the incredible development of the characters and the satisfying development of Angelus are hard to credit when ranking individual episodes hence S2 seems to fair poorly. I really need to use Excel to see exactly what is what but I am not sure my inner nerd is that keen.

There does seem to be some similarity with our assessments which is vaguely heartwarming. If we disgreed on everything I would begin to wonder if one or both of us were watching the same show. sk

as much welcome to the hellmouth is great for the introduction of each character, things really go into into what is going to be buffy in the harvest, i don't think it has to do with the all buffy and co rescuing the bronze, it's mostly how the scooby really start to take shape: buffy accepting her role, willow becoming hacker girl, xander if not muscle man ready to help any way he can, ...

i think a few episode had the same notation and i didn't really think which one should be before the others <_<


re: the freshman, there are a few good things: sunday, the scooby coming back together (but a bit too slow), a new start (i do like buffy wandering around the campus) but something feel as in missing, not sure what :unsure:

:shrug: :ponder:

I have never thought about Joss establishing themes that would dominate the rest of the series. I will bear that in mind if we ever do another rewatch. They should have fused both parts back together again on the DVD which would perhaps balance things up.

It is hard to say why I like The Freshman so much. The script is up there with Doppelgangland for one thing being very witty and sassy. Second I have been through a university experience so I am sympathetic to what Joss is trying to do. When you start university it is quite hard especially seeing as it is almost like going into exile if you move to a different part of the country. Buffy has a supernatural existence which makes the adjustment doubly difficult. Buffy is used to dominating so she has to best the anti-Buffy Sunday. My personal feeling is that Joss handles it all effortlessly which is something special. Once slayer Buffy has asserted herself in The Freshman Buffy then asserts her social self in Living Conditions.

I tend to 'block mark' too as trying to ascertain which script is stronger than another when you are dealing with scripts which are all of a muchness is too exasperating. sk

Seeing as I have too much freetime I have just fiddled about on a spreadsheet and after making a few mathematical assumptions your favourite season is...fanfare...

S7

In fact prophecy girl your full list would be a little something like this

S7.....S3.....S2.....S5,S1.....S4.....S6

That big block of sympathetic rankings for S7, which I mentioned in another post, pushes it to the top.

Your previous rankings suggested you liked S3 best then S7 so there has been something of a change. S2 also seems to have made a bit of a comeback which feels about right. The low ranking of Ted, Reptile Boy and Inca Mummy Girl slightly squeezes S2s score. sk

i think the writer were also trying to show the difference between season one and four for buffy and willow

season one willow: a bit of an outsider, no boyfriend

season four willow: prepared for university, boyfriend, no problem to discuss anything with a TA


------

buffy season one: easy talking, would have had no problem to be one of the cordettes, fashion taste,

buffy in the freshman: have trouble to discuss anything riley, no prepared and kinda lost in the campus, and well no boyfriend (i will not mention the clothes as it was probably just sunday having an other blow at buffy just for the fun)

:unsure: :ponder:

I have just analysed my 144 and my results are something like:

S2,S3,..........S4,S5,S1,.....S7.....S6

I feel that is a reasonable representation of how I judge the seasons. Some say S1 is very simplistic but it has bags more charm in WTTH alone than in the entirety of S6 and S7.

I have too much freetime. sk

well at least we agree on season six position :lol:

Hi JB,

Absorbing reading - (also note that I have real-woman-flu right now and might subsequently deny everything below... :blink: )

Amazing that 2 of my all time favourites are in your bottom 3. That pesky woman power thing must have annoyed you lots in Beer Bad? And Superstar is just prize-winning silly genius for me....

Band Candy would be in my top ten for ever I think.

PS I also voted for Bulgaria in last year's Eurovision- ain't democracy grand?

Hi Mehitabel

I like Jane Espenson because she is willing to take risks. She delivers the absolute genius of Intervention and Earshot for a start. She also delivers Giles finest hour in A New Man.

Unfortunately there is a down side in my opinion. My feelings on Superstar at the last rewatch were along the lines that Jonathan was not a well drawn enough character to be the star of his own spoof. I feel that problem is fatal so the silliness did not draw me into story.

I was less offended by Beer Bad than completely baffled as to what Tracey Forbes was trying to do. Is Beer Bad simply some kind of prohibition mentality or is something a bit subtler going on? The only thing I like is that Sarah is an absolute trooper and goes along with the insanity by giving her all.

Just in case I feel I had better say this in case of misunderstanding. I am all for Buffy style 'moderate feminism' ie it seems to say 'she that can - do' and there should be no barriers to achievement. I am just a bit sceptical of extremist 'man-hating aggression' which seems to bubble under the surface in The Handmaids Tale. There is a very strange epilogue in THT where all the events in it are placed in a historical context ie Atwood seems to be saying such a state of affairs would not last. I am all for Mrs Thatcher testing the limits but Atwoods science fiction story though brilliant is not that convincing in its extremism.

I am not some kind of John Milius reactionary but I am a bit sceptical about 'revolutionary socialism' ie you might end up unleashing the profoundly unenlightened follies of the French revolution. sk