:thumbsup:


Really enjoyed this one :)

Was only going to watch the first 10 mins or so and go to bed but ended up watching the lot :lol:

Love the way in which the uncertainty as to whether the Romulan is on the level carries through for so much of the episode and was still surprised that he turns out to be an Admiral, for some reason I completely forgot that bit.

Subsequently the way in which the Enterprise w**k out that the Admiral is being played and that they have been lured in to a trap is very well executed imo, as is the twist with Picards back up plan :thumbsup:

I'd say that the only slight negative for me was the huge risk the Romulans were taking in allowing Jarok to defect - surely once they knew he was no longer entirely loyal they should have eliminated him. Okay they might have then managed to trap and destroy the Enterprise but was that risk worth the potential loss of classified information Jarok must have known, not to mention the PR value in him going to the Federation :shrug: :ponder:

Lastly, nice little DS9 pick ups here with Jarok popping up there as the scientist who discovered Odo (Dr Mora oslt) and the ep being produced by the IRA Bear ;) :)

This is my favourite TNG episode full stop. The whole story is pretty interesting, and I love the way it comes down to a matter of trust. There is no evidence, so they have to take him at his word and go and have a look anyway, even though it could start a war.

The final confrontation between Picard and Tomolok is absolutely brilliant, with some great acting from both of them. I just love how Picard is just toying with Tomolok before revealing his hand. It was all set up so subtly earlier on in the episode that I didn't see it coming at all.

I thought that just showed what a devious bastard Tomolok was. Jarok was still loyal to the romulans, he just disagreed with Tomoloks plans. So Tomolok set him up perfectly, knowing that he was no traitor, but he would feel compelled to try and prevent a war.

:thumbsup:

Totally agree. I couldn't for the life of me remember how the Enterprise was going to escape the Warbirds until the Klingons de-cloaked :)

That's why it's only a slight niggle for me :)

I can see this line of reasoning and it does make sense but, for me, it's still a very risky play - he's putting an awful lot on the line based on his reading of Jarok :shrug:

Dave, I think you may have missed the point ;)

It's quite clearly stated that the Romulans had become aware of Jarok's disaffectation some time before and had been feeding him disinformation ever since. It's logical to assume, therefore, that any classified information he had been aware of up until that point - fleet deployment etc - would have been sufficiently changed for none of it to be in severe danger should he, indeed, defect :)

No doubt the Romulans would think that it is far more just to do it this way, allow him to defect and then know that he will suffer for the rest of life because, in his words, he "did it for nothing". They're not Klingons, after all :p :lol:

Anyway, su-f*cking-perb! :thumbsup:

My favourites are starting to come up thick and fast, and this has always been one of the very best. James Sloyan is simply amazing in the titular role, and he and Patrick Stewart match each other blow for blow throughout the entire episode. The scene in Picard's ready room is one of the most memorable of the entire series, especially when the conversation turns to the sacrifices Picard has made for his career. The look on his face shows that Jarok understands him a lot better than he thought because Picard undoubtedly felt that he was coming from the moral high ground until that point.

I also like the scene where Data is trying to figure out what his guts tell him, and the subsequent scene on the holodeck. The way Tomalak relishes Jarok's pain is brilliant, as is the steady revealing of the various twists - particularly the Klingon involvement, which I remember originally not seeing coming :thumbsup:

Also, Ron Jones' stunning score once again elevates the episode above the norm in the way that only he can. I'll never understand why he "left" the series in favour of Dennis McCarthy and Jay Chattaway, whose music never came close to achieving the same heights. Just listen to it in that sad final scene, or the end of the teaser as Jarok's ship is pursued and see what I mean :thumbsup:

This was Ron Moore's second story for the series, and another cracker.

A fabulous episode from start to finish :yahoo:

<<Puts stubborn hat on>>

No, I don't think I have :p

Yes, I can see they have been playing him, yes I can see that they would have limited the information in his possession or fed him misinformation BUT he would still have an indepth knowledge of the current political set up, intimate knowledge of other fleet commanders and their past and favoured tactics, positions and relative strengths of nodal defence positions and a whole hive of general non-classified day-to-day information which the Federation would still prize.

Not to mention the potential technological goldmine he would represent regarding the capabilities of the Romulans ships etc. and as already mentioned the PR disaster that allowing him to defect could have become :)

At the end all they got was one dead disloyal Admiral, probably a bunch of miffed subordinates who didn't like the way their boss was treated and very nearly a war which, given the Klingons involvement in what would have been the opening skirmish, they clearly would not be able to win.

I didn't realise you ever took it off :p :lol:

I agree on the first point, but the rest - why? Do we know he was that "hands on"? He didn't necessarily know all of those things in that much detail in the first place. Even if he thought he did, the Romulans may have maneouvred him into thinking he was up to date with all of that information. Unless he was out there physically checking it all for himself he would have no way of being certain. As he says at the end "All the transmissions, all the reports, it was all a lie" oslt. He's only going to be as good as the information fed to him.

Possibly, but it's also possible that he didn't know the new systems in that detail anyway. How long had he been an admiral? Would an admiral know in detail how a cloaking device works? Things may have moved on considerably since he was involved with the technology on that level, barring reports that were presented to him which - as we know - could well have been misinformation anyway.

Or the PR triumph of rooting out this defector and watching the poetic justice unfold as he sacrifices his life for nothing. Not exactly a disaster, that, especially with the spin the Romulan media would no doubt put on it :)

:lol:

Now you're just being silly ;)

Despite rising to quite a high rank in their navy this Admiral had absolutely no contact with his fellow officers, never made friends with them whilst training and rising through the sytem and even when trusted had no idea of any information concerning where their starbases were. What was he an Admiral of, Radish farming :unsure: :lol:

:lol:

"Admiral, the captains dead and we're under heavy fire what should we do".

Admiral: "How the f*ck would I know, they never tell me anything and it took me 50 minutes just to get a glass of water from that infernal food replicator".

<<Kaboom>>

Or they could have just arrested him as soon as it became evident he was a traitor and put on a nice show trial which would have achieved the same thing without all the risks. If they really wanted to rub it in they could have arrested his family and tortured them to death in front of him before his messy public execution :)

:lol:

I always am, I'm just amazed that you bite every time :lmao: ;)

<puts stirring hat on>

No, I think you're both wrong. It doesn't matter what Jarok knew or didn't know. The Romulans knew that Jarok was a loyal romulan, and no traitor. We saw this in the way he destroyed his shuttle rather than let the federation have a poke around. He would rather die than sell out to the federation (and he did).

Jarok probably knew exactly how a cloak generator worked, but Tomalok knew he would never betray the empire like that. He just put him into a position where he had no choice but to contact them to prevent a war.

Tee hee :lol:

Stir away :thumbsup:

:lol:

I like biting, it's fun :lol:

The trouble with this sort of thing though is that you risk painting the person in to a corner and making them do something out of character because of the way you have treated them.

Yes Jarok might well take his own life as he realises he's been manipulated in to throwing everything away for nothing but there's also a good chance of him wanting the whole revenge thing and staying alive to ensure he gets it.......

Sorry Nick - that hat can only be worn by one of us at a time, and I already had it on :snooty:

I'll swap it for my devil's advocate hat if you like :lol: ;)

Well obviously :rolleyes:

Radishes are a Romulan delicacy, I'll have you know, that's why he was trusted with such an important position.

Just out of interest, though, do we know to what degree he had been marginalised? :shrug:

You sure your name's not Rylander? :lol: ;)

Okay, this one I'll try and be a bit more serious on :innocent:

How about killing two birds with one stone? Not only have they got rid of a traitor, but they also get to watch the Federation wiping egg off its face for some time to come. Double whammy :lol: :ph43r:

Thats OK, I have a pair of stirring socks I can use.






Honestly, you guys are acting like a pair of veruuls.

I've been called worse :lol:







Usually by Dave :lol:

Stupid internet connection ruining my fun <_<

Anyway posting attempt number 2:-

Try harder :lol: :p

The encounter ended up with the Federation uncovering the Romulan ruse and trumping their show of force with the help of the Klingons. If anything this could be argued that all they did was bring the Klingons and Federation together more strongly in the face of a mutual threat - not exactly the bestest outcome for the Romulans ;)

Assuming we use your 2 stones analogy it would appear they suffered an unlucky rebound from the head of the Romulan traitor and gave them selves a nasty blow in the goolies :lol: :p

:lol: :thumbsup:

I only said I'd try, didn't say I'd try hard :p

'Twas good enough to get you biting again, though :lol: :ph43r:

Only because that idiot Tomalak was too busy gloating over Jarok to stop himself 'fessing up to the whole thing :rolleyes: I hope he got a ticking off when he got home :lol:

I'd far rather it had been left a bit more ambiguous by Mr Moore, it would've given you more to think about :lmao: :p

:naughty:

I was just trying to make my re-watch look busier :snooty:

:o

Oi, I'm trying to keep up :snooty: :lol:

Killing one bird with two stones? Did the first one miss?

Next you'll be telling me that two birds in a hand catches the worm, or something.

Have to agree with Steve on this one.

Along with paranoia what's the overriding characteristic of a Romulan? Supreme arrogance. I doubt the Romulans would have considered using Jarok as bait to draw the Enterprise into the Neutral Zone as much of a risk at all.

Best case scenario, they unmask a traitor and destroy the Federation flagship. Worst case scenario, they don't destroy the Enterprise, but they do unmask the traitor, who's armed with questionable intelligence at best. In this scenario the Federation have already seen that Jarok's intel was faulty, would they seriously believe anything else he told them? They'd be sceptical at best.

What did the Federation get out of the encounter? They didn't lose their flagship. The Romulans on the other hand, 1) Confirmed the identity of a traitor, 2) Maneuvered said traitor into neutralising himself, and 3) Found out that the Klingons probably WOULD stick by the Federation in a fight with them. Valuable strategic intel.

Pretty smart move by the Romulans really. They'd more than likely have known that once Jarok discovered that he'd defected for nothing something like his ultimate end would happen. Given that, there was practically no down side for them.

:p

<<<looks over shoulder at Steve>>>

Told you he'd agree with you again :lol:

:p :p :p

You're all mad :lol:

:01:

James rules :lmao: :thumbsup:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :p

:lol:

Bastards <_<

'Course in the same way that 2 wrongs don't make a right, 2 wrong people aren't right either :p

Okay, I see that you're one of them - where's the other one? :p :lol: :01:

In my experience, I've found that it's so much easier to agree with someone when they're right......

:p :lol:

Go on Dave, just give it a try, come over to the 'right' side for a change......:lol:

<<<makes the internationally accepted sign for crazy people>>>

Strikes James on head with rattle :p :lol:

And he's not right :snooty:

^^ Denial :rolleyes:

:lol:

Perhaps it's age.....

Dave, are you losing your marbles mate? :lol:

Counts on fingers. It's possible I guess, after all you are both quite advanced on the years front and these things do affect your ability to reason correctly :shrug:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm sure the white-coat brigade have a cosy 'room' ready and waiting for you right now Dave :p

Doesn't take Dave long to resort to personal attacks when he's losing an argument :lmao:

Eh :blink:

I was just having a bit of after victory insulty fun :p :lol: