This is probably a repeat of someones elses thread in the same state of mind.... unless you all loved it and I'm just weird.

Ok - bought season 5 after the excitement of finding it for less than £35. Was very excited about seeing the Buffy characters after season 7 and to see how they ended Angel after I liked the end of Buffy (it could have gone so wrong). I'd held out - hoping to cling on the the Buffy world just a little longer - and now its over.

So the plot appeared to vear right at the end away from Wolfram and Heart (and my anticipated big bad) to some crumby Black Thorn thing - where they all head out on a suicide mission and Wesley (who, after I publicly denounced his English accent on this sight, actually really grew on me) dies!!! So my fav characters of Fred and Wes (after Spike) bite the dust and we're left not knowing if the rest are alive or dead!!!!!! Thats not a happy ending!!!!! If left me all sad!!!

At least in Buffy we had minimal casualites really, Buffy was left with a hopeful future and there was the whole cookie dough thing that she may end up with Angel again (though I'm a Spuffy fan). Did anyone else find the whole jaunt to Rome thing stupid given they could only get the actor who played Andrew?!! I mean why bother. They brough Nina in half-heartedly so you didn't really care about her.

OK - I was just really left disappointed!!! Good job I've got Serenity coming up to look forward to. I dont follow the Angel world and maybe theres an explanation. Can anyone help with these feeling of disaapointment?

:ponder: It could have done with a little more build up of the Black Thorn but don't forget they were counting on having another season at least and so the ending was extremely rushed.

I think they had intended to do year 5 totally about Wolfram & Hart, Fred/Ilrya wasn't supposed to die and neither was Wes and had major storylines planned for the next season that never came.

They had a really short space of time to end the series and it does show, having said that better to go out with a bang rather than a wimper, ending on a big fight, the biggest they had ever faced and coming down to what the gang were all about.

The Italian jaunt was a complete waste of time, they could have used that episode more wisely and was a total flop but maybe at the time everyone was a little p****d off that the rug had been pulled out from under them.

It was a fantastic year for Wesley, I absolutely loved him this season and there were some great episodes. :)

Chosen wasn't my favourite finale in the world, I much prefered the less-happy ending of Not Fade Away. As Angel stated back in Buffy S3 "We never win", but they kept fighting and that is why we grew to love the characters.

Not fade away was a better finale then Chosen so i'm not going to complain.But i know i could have done without the episode The Girl in question,i preferred CHosen when Buffy tells Angel maybe one day she'll know who she really want to be with,it left more options like Not fade away. ;)

TBH I quike liked it and would prefer to watch Not fade Away than Chosen, if I had to choose that is :)

Certainly felt a bit rushed but I liked that Wes died - always seems daft when an essentially ordinary character (cough Xander) goes up against powerful enemies time and time again and always comes through :rolleyes:

kind of rushed

with a the girl in question to mess with the all arc (ok there was illyria/fred plot but still)

but a good ending, angel fighting the good fight like he was supposed to do

:thumbsup:

I thought the same thing. It didnt end at all the way I was expecting it too. It was well rushed. I know they didnt have much choice on when to end it, but it just got rushed to the finish line. I didnt like this season much at all. Its a shame how it ended as your left wondering who died? who survived? I know that was how they wanted it to end, but I hate not knowing. Sorry I dont know if this makes alot of sense to anybody else. I know what Im trying to write about but I dont know if Im explaining it very well.Sorry.
Haze
:blush:

ps I love :wub: spike to pieces but he wasnt the same in Angel as he was in Buffy was he? Or is that just my opinian.
:cry:

Thats all the buffyverse finished for me now.

No I agree, Spike was like a spare piece of furniture, other than the odd banter with Angel there was little point to him being there, and dodgy accent.

As you know I'm a fan so it pains me to say it but they shoud never have brought him over. :(

Iirc JM was part of the deal to renew Angel for S5 :rolleyes:

i heard that.

it just didn't make sense he wouldn't go after buffy really.

Odd that they didn't know what to do with him though, it was a complete waste IMO.

After the first few episodes they stopped making any kind of effort with the writing. You would have thought after years of making the show they would come up with some better ideas.

Damage was the only really interesting story for Spike, a few more in that ilk would have helped.

I completely love Season 5 with the exception of TGIQ, which has to be the worst episode I've ever seen of any programme I've ever liked.

Highlight for me was Wes shooting his dad - i know that reads a bit weirdly :lol:

:lol: @ Hippy, Xander's the luckiest guy alive :lol:

Especially in The Zeppo :shifty: :lol:

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

I am now finally up to date. Exactly what to make of Not Fade Away is something I am not immediately sure of. It somehow feels more right to have a complex ambiguous ending to Angel compared to Buffy. The odds that were stacked against them was maybe a nod to Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid.

One of the problems in adult life is that power is ever present and you always end up butting heads unless you start playing power games yourself. This means understanding the art of subordinating. I do not know how far this idea was intended in Angel but having Wolfram & Hart as an ever present foe hints to me that they intended this idea to some degree. Following the thread of this idea leads me to say that S5 was a good idea bringing Angel as up close and personal to power as was possible. It also seems about right for Angel to realise that he could only make a futile gesture ultimately. The end reminded me a bit of Seven where Morgan Freeman's character quotes about the world being a fine place and worth fighting for. He then comments he only agrees with the second part.

Putting my anorak on for a moment I wonder if Illyria and her enhanced abilities would swing the fight but it seems to me that the odds were stacked against them and the outcome would have been bleak indeed. An ending close to Blakes 7 perhaps.

The quality of episodes was extremely variable especially during the first half of the season. I wonder if they were saving up the pennies for later in the season. A few more jokes would not have gone amiss either.

S5 was without doubt the weakest season but it still had its moments. I am glad I remained mostly spoiler free. The Girl in Question did not really w**k and some kind of verbal acknowledgment about Buffy would have been enough within a different story. sk

I had a similar feeling the first time I watched NFA sk, but now I think that it was the best way to end the series and was in keeping with the theme of Angel's journey. I think the notion that the fight and the need to do the right thing was more important for Angel than winning or gaining a reward was reinforced on a number of occasions throughout the series. I think you're absolutely right in what you say about Angel the series needing a more complex and ambiguous ending than Buffy because it was a more grown-up show, and I've always thought of Angel the series as a grown up sister to Buffy the Vampire Slayer - where Buffy dealt with issues faced by teenagers, Angel was more about the journey into young adulthood and figuring out and accepting your place in life.

IMO The Girl in Question was the worst episode in the entire series and I think it was in poor taste that they kept it as the 3rd last episode when they knew the show was being cancelled - the episode could have been put to a better use by introducing the Black Thorn. But as Claire has pointed out, it did have the moments where Illyria revealled that she could take on the form of Fred, which redeems it somewhat.

Spike - I still don't know what to think of the addition of Spike. He had a few good moments, but overall I don't think they knew what to do with him.

I really enjoyed season 5 and I think that despite the standalone nature of many of the episodes there was a subtle arc that played out how the fang gang had been corrupted and distracted by the move to Wolfram and Hart, but that they ultimately got back on mission, and this was especially apparent in Gunn's development throughout the season. Season 5 also gets bonus points from me for finally making Connor likeable! :lol:

I too am in the NFA camp I’m afraid. Not being spoon-fed a series finale was a bold move by ME/JW and in my honest opinion it worked.

I do agree that S5 was by far the weakest season, but that was always going to be case following on from the superb S4, which as far as I’m concerned was one of the most exciting and innovative seasons in the Buffy|Angelverse, if not that year's US TV. I also agree with comments about Connor being made ‘likeable’. :)

However, on the whole, I still preferred NFA over Chosen.

warner brothers made sure season 5 was episodic so it didn'thave the heavy story arc like season 4 which they blamed for the loss of interest i8n the show, this is why the whole ending seemed rushed and odd.

At first the only thing that upset me about the ending was that Angel signed away the shanshu prophecy - but then I realised it made him fight for selfless reasons which made him a true hero so i forgave them.

Killing off Fred and Wes upsetting yes but Illyria was supposed to stick around and there were plans for her to be Fred more often in season 6 - Illyria was brought in to show Amy Acker's acting abilities. Wes had to die - look at how how he was without Fred if Fred went Wes went it made sense.

As for the others yeah maybe they did die but they did it doing what they were meant to as hero's and none of their lives were going to great anyway!

I hated Cordy dying as Joss promised never to kill a core scooby which I consider cordy to be. It's sad that it's over but in my oppinion the ending was beautifully sad and totally perfect.

(Agree with you on nina though what a waste of time!)

Connor was always likable just misunderstood! :D

As for the girl in question stupid but hilarious in some points like the car chase with angel and spike rounding the corner at 5 m/ph or there being hundreds of Spike leather jacket.

Buffy couldn't just be disreguarded just like Angel needed to be in the final episodes of Buffy. The problem was there was no way to happily resolve the angel or spike issue without alienating half of the fan base given the situation and time it was the best they could come up with and did have some great comic scenes!

Hands up everyone who loves andrew! :yahoo:

Aw, John, I thought you might be in the select group of S5 defenders!

The ending of S5 was fine, I think, and the commentary spells it out- Angel's life is always going to a fight, and if he doesn't die in the S5 fight then that that is what his life will be and how he will probably go.

I also like the relatively episodic nature of S5- it still contained the arc but the arc did not contain it. (That seems clever to me right now. It won't in the morning.)

Also, I am prepared to defend The Girl In Question. Not at lenght, right now, but I may return to it, if the mood takes, but in short, the things people slag it off for are the things I like about it.

i watched not fade away again last night, although i knew what the outcome would be i was still swearing at them telling them to go get some bazookas or machine guns or something!!! at least fight with a fighting chance!! damn them :cry:

Why would they need a fighting chance, when they have a dead certainty- heros + unbeatable odds = inevitable victory (bet Joss reads Terry Pratchett). We just don't know how :shrug:

bazooka and/or machine guns .... that was more a wesley thing (guns, shotgun,....) especially in season four :(

And you know what another highly characteristic Wes thing is? NOT DYING (of any of the massive injuries he ever got- I mean, survival becomes ingrained after a while... and a hacked gut from a deranged gereatric doesn't even begin to compare with the previous.) No, I'm simply not buying it.... :damnyou:

well wesley survived a throat cut better than being gutted .... :ponder:

i suppose they needed a slow death because of the illyria/fred scene :shrug:

it was all just far too upsetting

do you think they will ever make another episode or mini series???

please please please please please please please please pleeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaassssssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :ponder:

well depend how long it's gonna take for joss to finally start thinking about that spike or whoever TV film (or straigh to video/DVD) :shrug:

and shot...and exploded.... and an English boarding school.

Joss just had a bad day, nothing that couldn't be fixed. I could do it myself.

I rest my case.

(Stuff Illyria anyway, like to see her diploma in human diagnostics, ho ho.) :naughty:

Dont get upset, get fractious like me instead. We know better, after all... :hug:

And suffocated. Forgot suffocated. :shrug:

and tortured for a very long time by faith :ermm:

And the residual concussions from all those early pratfalls...yep: a clear case for indestructability if you ask me (which Joss of course should've). :thumbsup:

Sadly, I think Wes wanted to die right then. There was nothing for him to live for. He wanted to be with Fred, he could only hope that he ended up wherever she was, then he could be with his one true love for eternity.

That seems a rather soppy, if romantic, thing to do.

Only an Englishman :rolleyes: :lol:

Another good reason for not taking the easy way out- of course he was self- destructing with an option on self-deluding... much more interesting than d.e.a.t.h. any day. :ponder:

Well that's it. That's how it all ends.

Firstly I would like to say I agree with Jamie about Wesley wanting to die. I loved his charactor but the time for him to die was right. He fought to be with Fred and then lost her too soon. He has fought the good fight and now it's time to be with the person of his dreams. :wub: :cry:

I have been trying to put off the end of Angel for nearly a year and have taken that long to watch S5 although each episode has been readily available. Now it's over I wished I hadn't rushed season 4.

I can't believe there isn't anymore Buffyverse to uncover. I am starting a rewatch in the summer but it won't be the same. :cry:

For me, the ending was perfect and I know alot would disagree including my sister who is a fan.

It ended as it should have. With the uncertainty of whether they would make it considering the odds stacked against them. Wesley died at the right time as well as Gunn being very badly injured making you wonder if he survives.

As with anything Buffyverse, our heroes will always win but not showing them winning leaves us not only desperate for more but also with a certain amount of doubt in our minds as to the final outcome. There is also loads of room for fanfiction on the ending that was limited when Buffy finished apart from the obvoius moving to LA. (WHich would have been perfect in my opinion)

Anyway, as much as I want to watch as many seasons / mini series / films etc that pass my way, I am glad we have closure without closing the Buffyverse all together.

The last few episodes were rushed and as a result the scripts were no where as good as we expected, particuarly TGIQ but overall I am happy that it ended the way it did. :cry:

Oh, finally, I was loving Spike reciting his poem in the bar!!! :yahoo:

re: the army of seniors partners or the minions in not fade away

iirc, in reprise, it was mentionned that for the senior partners to manifest themselves on earth (or ok maybe it was just for the review :shrug: ), they were using the body of a kleynach entity (even if home office was earth). so i think the army was just an army of trolls (plus a big dragon) :unsure:

The massively encouraging thing about 'let's go to w**k' is the absolute confidence of Business As Usual. And not 'oh look, an alley full of unbeatable nasties'. I mean, REALLY :whistling:

let see, an old one (illyria), a vampire full of the senior partner blood (angel), spike, a dying gunn .............. 2 of them might survive the encounter :shrug:

You've forgotten the surprise :naughty:

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There's ALWAYS a suprise :thumbsup:

connor to the rescue? :ponder: :ph43r:

Connor and Wes I think. Just because we were lead to believe he was dead, doesn't make him dead! :thumbsup: