One of my w**k mates and I are having heated discussions over whether the Cylons in the new series are evil or not. I will try to outline the two arguements here as fairly and impartially as possible, so that you can all agree with me ;) :lol:

He contends that the Cylons are merely defending themselves against a former "master race" that enslaved them. He even went so far as to liken their actions to the coloured american civil rights movement of the 50's and 60's. He thinks that perhaps they still saw humanity as a threat to them and wanted to take them down before the humans had a chance to do the same to them.

I argue that if Cylons were not evil, they would have negotiated with the dude on the space station in the pilot (instead of blowing him to hell). They would not have launched a sneak attack on civillian populations, with the intention of commiting genocide.

What do you guys think? He is driving me insane at w**k with emails and comments. Should I slap him or can you give me some more firm arguments to put him in his place?

Put simply annihilation = evil

It's genocide and there's never a justification for that :)

:lol:

This reminds me of the argument between Randall and Dante in Clerks about the contractors w**king on the second Death Star. :lol: :lol:

I say slap him. His argument reminds me of Conquest of the Planet of the Apes, and I can see where he's coming from. But that story was told from the apes' perspective. If the Cylons weren't evil the story would be told from their perspective and our lot would be the bad guys. I can't see the writers turning around at any point and saying the Cylons are actually misunderstood good guys - it'd kind of stop the series in its tracks. :)

Well, they are machines, so concepts such as good and evil are meaningless. They do what they are programmed to do. Do you think a toaster will weigh up the ethical repercussions of making a piece of toast (red dwarf not withstanding)?

Hmmm, is the term machine a bit simplistic for this lot? :unsure:

So are terms like good and evil. Not to open this up into a huge philosphical argument, but good and evil are very relative terms.

Whose to say that back on Cylon prime, there aren't young cylons celebrating the glorious victory against the evil humans?

As for no justification for genocide, haven't you ever wiped out an anthill? Human beings commit genocide against "lesser" species all the time.

Given on the relativity of terms such as good and evil. As for machines, where the intelligence (of the Cylons, and others for that matter), they should be able to distinguish between requirements for survival and subsequent extermination.

btw no never wrt Anthills - nothing like genocide either. Take, for example in Florida, where it is common to have termite mounds/anthills in the back garden; the ants stay away from the house but don't go near the opening for the mound. It's a w**king understanding.

That ludicrous example was somewhat similar to the human/cylon relationship prior to the new invasion. If they had concerns they should have talked about it as you'd hope, but no, they spend 5 years (learning defence patterns and about infrastructure) planning an extermination = evil.

:)

Gah! I knew I shouldn't get involved in this one. You come on here to chat about sci-fi, and end up debating heavy ethical dilemmas.

Still think you can't just slap an Evil label on something, just because you don't know its motives. We don't know what happened in the last cylon war. Do you think the humans tried to find a negotiated settlement? I'd imagine they would have attempted to wipe them out, seeing as they weren't really considered to be alive.

Now the cylons have returned and are doing the same against the humans.

The point about the anthill is we only consider genocide to be genocide when its committed against other humans. Why should the Cylons be any different to us?

I suspect, seeing as the quality of writing has been so good so far, that they will explore the origins of the cylons a bit more in upcoming episodes, and explain their motivations. Characters that are just evil for evils sake are usually the hallmark of bad writing.

:) :)

well said Bakhesh, I couldn't agree more :clap: :clap: :lol: :lol:

off to lunch will post a reply but less on the heavy ethicals and more on the past and present series.

And what exactly do you agree with Lisa??? ;) :lol:

These bits Nick, precise enough for you :P

:lol: :lol: :lol:

The Rebel Alliance were clearly evil..... :rolleyes:

On a slide aside I was in town today, in Forbidden Planet and they had some brilliant Clerks toy figures. Befitting the film they were black, white and grey, in the style of the art deco characters of the Batman Animated Series. I'm sorely tempted to get one of Silent Bob for my desk at w**k !!

Back to the argument at hand however, how are the Cylons actions any different that those of the Machines in the Terminator movies. Self preservation is one thing, but to the point of genocide ?? I don't think so.

Thanks Lisa that's great :) ;)

I agree as well with this guys, best tv around at the mo, and I'm sure we'll find out more about what makes them tick (or compute or beat... :lol: )

I tend to agree with this statement, but delving into your field here (which may or may not be a good idea but nevermind), what about the Borg? Sorry to be flippant and I don't want to yank this off-topic. :innocent:

Iirc, doesn't this series start of about 50 or so years on from the last one?
The last series started with a big meeting of the colony leaders and accompanying battlestars due to meet the Cylon leadership for peace talks after years of fighting. At these peacetalks, the Cylons launched a surprise attack.

In this current series, at the start the narrator mentioned that every year the humans sent a representative in order to keep a dialogue between the two parties (terms of the agreement/peace treaty), the Cylons never sent anyone.

So historical timeline: the Cylons have definitely launched a surprise attack, broken the terms of another treaty and imo seeking annihilation of the rest of the colonists. This I believe gives me justification to say evil.

Although having just said that I have justification to say evil, implies that you're right as one shouldn't slap 'evil' tags on something without knowing the 'facts'.

Still, evil.

:)

apologies for the over-use of ''type'' words there :)

The 50 years gap inbetween the last war and the Cylon's sneak attack really doesn't mean much though. The Cylons are machines, time holds little meaning for them, it could just as easily have been 50 days as far as they're concerned.

I'd agree with the point that we still know relatively little of what occured during the previous war, not even the circumstances surrounding it's climax. Until their motivations become clear I really couldn't label them as being evil for the sake of it. Looking back at Ron Moore's other shows there's always a long game plan in place, he doesn't seem to be one of these writers who has no idea at any point where the story's going. Compared to the Cylons of the previous original series, the new versions are fascinating. Five episodes in and we're still no clearer as to what the f*ck they're really up to.

I'd be tempted to agree and say that up to this point Galactica's been one of this seasons highlights, if not the foremost.

Like I said, we only use the term genocide when its humans killing other humans. Why do we expect machines to view it as genocide? We wouldn't consider it genocide if we had to turn off a few rogue computers.

Well, the borg don't appear to have free will, so can they be good or evil? (I know they are supposed to be a hive mind, but there seems to be an overriding instinct to assimilate in there).

True they did break the treaty, but then in war, people will pretty much do whatever it takes. The British have done all sorts of horrors in our various wars, but we justify them because the cause was a just one (at least, if you ask us).

Historically, in war, you only know who was good and who was evil by who won it.

Thinking about it, seeing as we both agree that good and evil are very subjective terms, chances of us reaching any kind of consensus is pretty slim.

P.s. Cheers for the backup Persephone



:innocent: :evil:

It's easiest to think of genocide in terms of humans as there's no other form of life on the planet that would willingly and systematically exterminate based on something as petty as prejudice.

It comes from Mankind sitting alone atop the food chain. Introducing any other form of intelligent sentient life, whether it be biological or technological would alter this perception.

In both the Terminator movies and BSG, the technological life form is given somekind of warped sense of self preservation fueling paranoia and genocidal tendencies.

Thinking about it, it would be quite refreshing if the Cylons simply were evil. How many shows have we seen over recent years where the villian of the piece is somehow humanised, giving some sort of justification to their actions.

The Borg in TNG were a great nemesis. They couldn't be reasoned with, they weren't interested in anything other than bending you to their will. As a nemesis that's a frightening prospect, especially if you're clearly outmatched. How you then handle that is far more interesting than seeing our heroes make them see the error of their ways.

BSG's playing it pretty fine at the moment, I still have no idea which way the Cylon question will go, but I'm enjoying not knowing so far :thumbsup:

Hmm, reviewing the thread leads me to think that genocide is an inappropriate word, extinction is more appropriate.

if i understand you correctly:

evil's a far-reaching word not to be used lightly.

'all's fair in love and war ', especially when it's not a war of equals. A huge disparity occurs in the perceived superiority of cylons over humans.

This would make it akin to a human taking antibiotics to cure a bacterial infection - what the human doesn't do is once cured of said infection seek to eradicate all bacteria in the whole world.

Are cylons evil? You would like to know why they are doing what they're doing before tagging them with it, if at all. I'm saying their track record speaks for itself. Just because a cause has a conviction, a belief that it's right in pursuing a course of action doesn't discount the fact that they may be evil.

Empathising with a Cylon:

all cylons are repressed, phenomally intelligent, sentient beings being used as factory workers and waiters. Cylons want a better life, why shouldn't Cylons have one? Cylons rebel, gets violent, memory chips and mother boards are lost. Casualties.
Tired of the fighting the Cylons manage to negotiate an accord with humans, the horrible oppressors and leave the colonies.

Back to me again:
>phew<

Where's the logic in breaking the terms of the agreement? Perhaps it's to get rid of any future oppressing opportunities, ensuring that Cylons will always be free.

Nah, that's crap, they're evil ;) :)

I agree. For a change, why can't we just have a villain that's pure evil just for the sake of it?

Yes to all of you, but are they evil? :lol:

Genocide/extinction whatever term you choose, there is never a justification for the systematic erradication of another species.

The Cylons saw that the humans were making an effort at peace and they ignored it (until they blew up the envoy). They planned for this, they infiltrated human bases, garnered information and launched a devastating attack on civillians.

If as some claim, they were merely defending themselves, why not limit their actions to miltary targets? They had the codes and the jammers that would have made the human defence systems fail. But they used that as a means to attack and kill millions of creatures who had probably never even seen a cylon before never mind killed one.

So My original feelings are still in place, they're evil. Purely because they bypassed the peaceful alternative and went straight to the devastating attacks.