Well, I finally know where that Kosh quote comes from: the avalanche one. :) I always find it really difficult to understand what Kosh is saying though. His encounter suit "echo" doesn't make for easy comprehensibility. :rolleyes:

Some (and I hesistate to use the word interesting in my 3rd review in a row, but my vocabularly is limited at this time of night :lol:, so...) interesting moral dilemmas posed in this episode. Was Franklin right to go against the parents? Well, if they had been human, I would have said it was stupid to oppose surgery cos of a religious belief, but seeing as they were aliens, I guess there could have been some element of truth to their statement that the "spirit" would escape. In any case, as soon as he did the surgery, I just knew the kid would die anyway. :rolleyes:

Also, how did Ivanova escape from all those Raiders? :huh:

Anyway, that's me wiped out. I'm off to bed. :yawn: :sleeping:

This one tends only to stick out in my mind as being the one that went out of it's way to highlight it's difference from Star Trek. Had this been Trek, the kid would have lived, the parents would have been won over and their entire race would have seen the error in their belief system....

Having said that, the tone is similar to that of Enterprise's Cogenitor.

Angel has just saved me a bit of typing, so I'll just agree with the Star Trek reference and move on. :lol:

At times Franklin frustrates me more than any other character in the series (with the possible exception of Garibaldi). His arrogance and self-righteousness shine forth in this episode. He's right, the parents are wrong, and that's all there is to it. He's prepared to override their beliefs - and the beliefs of the child - to suit his own morality and beliefs. I for one don't expect a doctor to be a god, and seeing him having to accept the consequences of his actions is for mine a very good thing.

Yet again we learn something about the main characters. G'Kar's reaction to the request for help still makes me shudder. Mollari reduces the issue to money. Approaching Kosh is almost laughable. Delenn's reaction is consistent with what we already know of her morality and beliefs. Sinclair wants what's best for everyone.

The raider subplot is all very well, but there's nothing memorable about it - except, of course, to reiterate that Ivanova rules. :D

People used to Star Trek's "morality" may find this episode surprising, but whatever else Babylon 5 may be it is most certainly not Star Trek. For mine, much as I like Trek, that difference is one of B5's greatest strengths. ;)

Both Angel and Orac have saved my typing ;) :lol:

A very powerful ep this.

Having been brought up on a diet of Star Trek's perfect future where humans are always right and other races miraculously see the light on how wrong they have been for countless millenia, the ending came as a bit of a shock when I first saw it, and the impact was all the greater for that.

Thsi was one of the stories that stook out when I first saw the series - and it was nice to see the impossible dilemma without the quick and easy happy ending.

However it doesn't help Franklin's character at all - his practical tantrum when Sinclair said no to him. On the same point, it was nice to see Sinclair stay out of the whole argument and leave it to Franklin - were it Trek you'd have had the captain come in and make his decision to uphold teh 'good Federations qualities'.

However, my favourite bit in the whole episode is Ivanova's strop at the beginning, culminating in her decision to 'knit something ... maybe a sweater' :lol:

What an episode!!! Angel you really could have warned me about this one.

The closest I can think of to the alien's beliefs to now is that Jehovah's Witnesses I belive will not allow blood transfusions even if the person who needs it will die.

This is a very strong emotive episode, Franklin was wrong to go beyond the beliefs of the parents and the orders of Sinclair (yes, if it had been STAR TREK I guess everything would have come good at the end) but I still could not help but feel sorry for him when the child was killed anyway.

As for the subplot apart from Ivanova's strop at the begining because she was 'stir crazy' I found it to be mostly distracting from the main story and also how the hell did she get away from all those fighters?

Main story - excellent!!!!
Sub plot - Pointless!!!

No I couldn't. It's nice to be surprised every now and then :P

One of B5's cornerstones; the characters are flawed, as you'll see time and time again. It's easier to become emotionally invested in the characters when you can relate to them, their problems and their ideals. In Trek, there's a very narrow scope and everyone pretty much stands for what everyone else stands for. The only Star Trek series that remotely comes close to generating this level of empathy for it's characters is DS9.

Star Trek apart from DS9 tries to keep to Roddenberrys vision that humanity has almost achieved perfection, that we have got rid of greed and hate and ignorance, obviously DS9 dosent have this objective, that dosent make either series better than the other,

The problem is Ken, that Roddenberry's original vision is an outdated concept. Not a problem in itself, other than the fact that Voyager tried to recapture it in a time that's become a lot more cynical given our current problems. Enterprise, despite being set in a much earlier time, still suffers from walking the same tightrope.

It's a concept with a limited lifespan. TNG used it to great success, as did TOS before it, but there was nearly a twenty year gap inbetween those two shows. DS9 went a different way, and rightly so, but Voyager just took one more retrogressive step too far.

As viewers, on an individual basis, it certainly shapes your perspective of which is the better show Ken ;)

Maybe its because I want Roddenberrys vision to come true (although it never will) that makes me prefer STAR TREK then

I'm sure we'd all love to see that kind of future Ken. I can't really reply to that one without going into spoiler territory though :lol:

Ask me again when we've finished the rewatch ;)

BUT if they are going to stick with the STAR TREK credance then fundermentally they have to stick, as much as possible, with this concept, surely?

That may be well and good, but the problem is that these days the general viewing public as a whole are cynical of Roddenberry's utopian vision of the future.

Time and time again I've seen people say the problem they have with Trek is how everything is perfect, everybody is so good, there's practically no corruption and so on. Interestingly, the exception to the rule always seems to be DS9, which - surprise! - is the one show that moved on from this vision.

If Trek wants to succeed in the big bad world of sci-fi of the last 10 years, it needs to move on from the perfect and moralistic future. Had you broadcast TNG today, it would have failed, and would have been cancelled very quickly. Look at Voyager and Enterprise - they go back to the outdated 'perfect future' notion, and their ratings have shot down.

If you stick to the orignal vision, then the series - and franchise - is doomed.

But was he? Any doctors first oath is to save lives and suffering, no matter what cost. Surely that's his first duty.

An interesting episode and very relevant today. It was also interesting to see how the other ambassadors put their own agendas first, and did nothing to help. No cracks about the UN today, please.

Wonder if we ever get to find out about those raiders in the future.

Haven't caught up yet but Phillip is absolutely spot on here regarding Trek. As I've said before I did enjoy TOS but I thought TNG was the preachiest, most idealistic and patronising show ever and it put me off the whole deal. I missed out on DS9 and only caught a few Voyagers and Enterprises, the latter two being nowhere near as bad as TNG.

When your friend Carl talks about about Trek/Roddenberry at his "worst" to me he is talking TNG.

My friend???? :mad: :mad: :mad:

Sorry But STAR TREK THE NEXT GENERATION is the best tv scifi ever!!

No Ken -

BABYLON 5 is the best tv sci-fi ever :)

I couldn't even justify putting that in my top five Ken. Sorry.

Each to their own opinion!!!

I have to admit I have enjoyed the last few weeks of B5 I have watched in the rewatch but even so I prefer NEXT GEN.

But like I say each to their own.

Like I say each to their own!!!

and your top 5 are?

Wait till the end of S4 Ken :)

(Sorry about calling Carl your friend btw)

B5
DS9
Firefly
X Files
Stargate SG1

That's not even taking things like Roswell, Farscape or Blake's 7 into account ;)

We shall see

No need to apologise

I wouldn't go that far, but IMHO it's nowhere near as "bad" as people make it out to be. Not that this has anything to do with "Believers", but one of the main reasons I watch Trek is because it presents a future where humankind grows up (so to speak) and accepts that we're all different, we all have something to offer, and we can get past all the mindless, petty crap that presently divides us.

I watch Babylon 5 and Blake's 7 when I want something more "realistic". I watch Trek 'cos I want to believe we as a species are going to get better, not stay much the same. :)

One theme that I loved from B5 is evident from B5's pilot, in the Zen garden, with the stone and the ripples providing the analogy; that one conscious mind can shape the universe around it.

I don't dislike TNG, on the contrary, I've got them all on VHS, it's certainly not bad. It's just that after things like B5 it's hard to go back :)

Never seen ROSWELL or FARSCAPE so I cannot comment on them.

You're all deluded. Mutant X is obviously the greatest sf show ever made. :lol:

I think you're forgetting Andromeda Steve :P

Cleopatra 2525 anyone? :lol:

Damn! :lol:

Hmmm!

Just read some of the glowing praise posts and zipped past the Trek/B5 posts and I think I'm in a minority of me here.

Really didn't like this episode much. Franklin, who tends to bug me anyway, was shown to be naive, stupid and arrogant, the ending was (to me) obvious and the whole ep seemed a silly exercise in 'look at me writing a moral dilemma (sp?) story'.

In fairness I do have fairly strong views of moral dilemma type stories - namely unless they're very original and very well done and fleshed out with something I find more interesting I don't like 'em :lol:

Oh and DS9 is still better :P :lol: :P

Tick, tock.... ;) :lol:

Back to the ep.

I found this very hard to watch and I had to FF in places. Not because its bad but because it makes me too angry.

Any being which puts superstisious, ignorant nonsense above their fellow creatures suffering are evil in my view. I consider them more evil than serial killers and terrorists as they take what they think is some kind of high moral ground. If I'd have been Franklin I'd have saved the kid and found a way to kill his bastard parents.

Sorry for the rant but I do feel strongly on this as you can tell.

An interesting central dilemma, a bit Trek-like undoubtedly, not helped by the fact that it's written by David Gerrold, stars Tricia O'Neill, and the kid, Shon, looks uncannily like Worf's son Alexander :blink: :lol:

Anyway, Richard Biggs is fantastic, especially towards the end, and Michael O'Hare does a great job again (I'm still mystified by how much more I like him each time around). I also like Ivanova bemoaning that she wants to take a Starfury out and protect a vessel from the raiders, especially when she comments that she'll just stay there and pace to and fro, and then go fro and to just for the hell of it :lol: :lol:

If one question comes out of it all, though, it's this: how the hell did she get away from all those raiders?? :shrug: