Last night all was well, but when I came to work this morning I could see that something was off in this tank. The fish seemed much less interested in begging for food and one yellow lab was hiding out on the bottom. I'm seeing a lot more flashing than yesterday, and the Labs especially seem to be working more at respiration. worry wart!

Only unusual act in last 24 hours: dropping in 2 Hikari algae wafers for the first time.

Only unusual act in last week: Rearranging rocks and doing a water change when I pulled out the holding female. Typical is 25%-30% change every 10 days or so.

Despite being a lousy role model as a manager at work I did an immediate 25% water change, the most I could take time for. Behavior has started to look more normal after that.

Water smelled tank-like but not abnormal.

Tank temp 79.6 in the end where the filter return pumps in water, 81.8 in the far end where the warmer water tends to be pushed by the filter. We had a hot day yesterday here and those temps are about 1 degree above typical for this tank.

Did a Nitrite test with my drip kit and got no red at all in it, just blue-green. This has been suspicious before and I'm thinking I should get a 2nd type of nitrite test. The tank has 5 plants in it, which shouldn;t be enough for a 0 reading.

The yellow labs in particulart are acting off. They have been sparring but I see no signs of injury. They are the ones most likely to be hiding out in a corner today though.

Update: The one fish that looks like it's really in trouble is a M yellow lab, one of the two younger ones that sparred continually. The dom M yellow lab is also acting cowed. The remaining M has a darkened face and is digging a nest, and chasing other labs in the tank. Looks to me like the role of "Dominant M Yellow Lab" changed last night, perhaps accelerated by the M/F ratio changing when the holding female was removed; the Peacock remains top M in the tank, however. But a fight would not explain the flashing.

I gave a light feeding of flake to see what they'd do and everyone appeared for it, but less voraciously as usual.

I'm planning another 25% water change on my lunch hour, and perhaps another late tonight. Would that be overdoing it?

Could a well-intentioned janitor have wiped down the hood and dripped some cleaning product into the tank?

Thanks for your advice! Help!

Don, I would do exactly as you are doing...The water changes aren't going to hurt anything, and since they showed a bit of improvement with the last water change, it does sound water related. By doing 3 water changes today, if it is a contaminant, you should be ridding yourself of most of it. I don't know if you normally use carbon or not, but it wouldn't hurt to put some fresh in there right about now...It will help you with clean up if it's water related.

As far as the flashing goes, if they aren't showing any white spots or cottony fuzzy areas, then I would elect a wait and see attitude with that. If it's the water, the water changes will help. If it's ich (caused by stress of the boys fighting it out) then you should see signs of it soon.

If by chance you notice they are flashing more about the gill area, then you might entertain the idea of gill flukes...Very hard to diagnose, and invisible to the naked eye...They just tend to be more determined to scratch in the general area of the gill.

If they still seem to be stressed and flashing tomorrow morning, you might need to medicate or go with salt and heat. (It's hard to raise the temp on an office tank when you can't observe it constantly. )

Have you done a head count to make sure you aren't missing any fish?

Back off on the food a bit, too, until you know what's going on. Try not offering them anything until late afternoon, right before you leave work for home. Then, just offer them a tiny amount to see how excited they are about it...The worse thing we can do when fish aren't eating well is let too much go to waste in the water...It's important to keep the water as pristine as you can when they are sick or stressed.

Sorry I didn't see this earlier in the day!

Kim

Update tonight: did about a 40% water change very late tonight.

Prior to the water change I saw 3 or 4 fish holding still at an angle with their mouths just below the surface. Not doing the gulp for air thing, but looking like they were contemplating doing so. After the WC I have not observed this behavior.

When I dumped old water it seemed frothier than usual. I posted a note on the tank asking the cleaning people not to clean around it, JIC someone was trying to hekp and somehow having something soapy drip into the tank.

I'll report more tomorrow. If there's anything weird still going on I'll do two more 25% water changes.

Don, it really sounds like some sort of contaminant entered the tank somehow.

Lingering at the top of the water line can also be indicative of severe aggression, so keep an eye out today and see if you notice anyone being overly psychotic.

Kim

Don your nitrite should be 0, its your nitrate that shouldn't be. Did you test for that?

Good catch, Debbie!

Kim

Ack! My bad typing... I meant Nitrates. That Debbie doesn't let anything get past her! :D

I haven't tested for Ammonia and Nitrites yet since the tank is mature. Will do that along with swapping in fresh carbon tonight and another WC.

The tank has returned closer to normal topday, although the Yellow Labs keep "looking to the stars for inspiration" at the top of the water.

Thanks for your ongoing Help!

I would get another test kit then, I have never really trusted the dip sticks anyway. I tried them and tested them against the chemical ones and they just aren't accurate.

What do you guys think about me pulling either the new dominant male out of there, or the most stressed one, to see if that rivalry is really what's driving all this? Ratio is 3M, 3F (luck of the draw on my order), with one F in a holding mom tank.

Alternately, would adding any more females be likely to help?

Thanks!

Don, it may be that these guys are just maturing and working it all out. We are talking about the 33L, right?

Now, you may have problems with illness and injury until they DO get things straightened out. Aggression=stress=challenged immune system=illness...

So it may be time for you to pick and choose what will be able to stay in this tank long term. Is the stock list still the same as listed in your signature?

And as for the sex ratios mentioned above, are you referring to the Yellow labs or the tank stock in general?

Male/female ratios really shouldn't matter with Yellow labs.

Kim

Yes, this is the 33L. Species list in my sig is accurate. The only ones old enough to sex are the Peacock (1M, 1F), the Red Empresses (3M, 1F but the males barely grow and they rarely fight), and the Cop. Azureus (probably 2M/3F). Still no idea re the Venustus, and the size of Venustus #2 has been catching up with #1.

3M/2F (+ 1F in isolation) resported for the Yellow Labs assumes that black anal and dorsal fin stripes are reliable for sexing; as posted elsewhere, my biggest "male" has no egg spots and the warring brothers do.

Looking for input, because the tank mood is definitely freaked out.

Thanks a million!

Well, I've had female Yellow labs with the nicest black anal and pelvic fins you've ever seen, so that is out the window. I have tried and tried to vent, but from what I understand, it's much easier to do visually in sexually mature fish, and by then, I usually know the score anyway! :unsure:

I don't think I would add anymore fish to the tank. Now that they are growing up a bit and maturing, they are going to start dictating what you have to do.

Sometimes the best way to figure out what is really going on in a tank is to turn the tank lights on and the room lights off and sit quietly for an hour or so, watching the tank. You might be really surprised about who your real aggressors are!

If you want to try to maintain this tank with these fish a bit longer, you may have to make some changes to the tank by removing territories so there is nothing to fight over. You can always try removing the potential aggressor, but it can be really hard to put him or her back in again.

What are your thoughts and plans for this tank permanently or long term?

Are the Yellow labs going to be the only ones to remain in it, or are you just using it to grow out everything?

Kim

Thanks so much, Kim, for the time you've spent helping me!

I really like your idea for watching the tank to see who is really doing what! Kind of like seeing your kids in the next room on a webcam! :ph43r: (Of course, like other CH'ers here our kids are grown up now.) Will my innocent-acting Venustus prove to be involved after all? Stay tuned...

Long-range plans for the tank: To keep this mix going as a grow-out and interim tank until October, when I'm going to get something between a 90 and a 160 for this crew. I'm hoping the four feet of length will let me hold it together till then. I am planning on asking for ideas her on Cichlid Haven for what I can do with the 33L after the Haps & Peacocks move out.

Having read here multiple times about female Yellow Labs with black pelvic and anal fins I think I have to say "I have at least 2 males and 3 females out of 7 labs" and assume my ratio may be different than I think. That more passive big one could indeed be a female.

I have the tank rocked less actively than for Mbuna, with some large 2-hole and 4-hole patterned sandstone rocks and a couple of big zebra rocks. I can pull them out if I have to, though I like the look. The two clusters of plants also both seem to be doing well.

Thanks -- I'll keep reporting in!

No problem, Don.

Sometimes by watching them when they aren't distracted by movement and lights out in the room will tell a story completely different from what you think is going on!

Good luck!

Kim

BTW, when I returned to the office today after 2 days away everyone is acting much more normal. They know I'm watching them!!!

One final thing: I elevated the temp about 1.5 degrees when I pulled out the holding female and rearranged the rocks. Could that have contributed to issues?

I'll keep an eye out and report if I see more strange things. Thanks!

Raising the temp can make them more active. Cooler temps slow their body metabolism down and seem to calm them a bit more. You might try taking the temp back to what it was and see what happens.

These fish really put us through the ringer sometimes!

Kim