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Title: Growth-Inhibiting Hormone in fry
Description: an opinion


GrandRiverBetta - September 19, 2007 12:27 AM (GMT)
I was shut down fairly quickly the other day in a discussion about whether fish fry exuded growth-inhibiting hormones or not. Being from a science background I am aware of the idea of hormones that stunt smaller similar specied animals generated by alpha members of the same as an empirical given.

There is no shortage of anecdotal evidence as well as research that shows this to be the case in Koi. I have listed a few reference points here that tend to support this contention in regards to Bettas.

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumfo...read.php?t=2379

http://www.bubblenest.com/betta/read.php?5,7907,7907

http://www.aqualandpetsplus.com/Livebearer,%20Guppies.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Fish-1472/fish-babies-4.htm

These are just a few points and all from american perspectives.

The real point I was hoping to make was the concept of jarring males as early as possible to reduce this hormone and allow your remaining fry to grow more quickly. Just wanted to redeem myself here.

Smitty - September 19, 2007 01:21 AM (GMT)
THANKS GRB!!!

I had read some of those, among other info' in some of our books, so it's really no surprise to me.
Since I'm getting pretty serious about breeding Bettas, I'm constantly studying not only additional info' that I can find (one of the reasons I love this forum so much!), but I'm also studying my actual fish as well. I'm watching growth rate, behavior, etc., and what things seem to have an effect on the Bettas over-all condition. Although I do understand that the first eggs in the nest and the last ones (maybe as much as 6 hours later) to be put in the nest may differ in sized or growth-rate of the fry, etc., I'm also noticing that if/when we can thin the population in a certain grow-out tank, the fry do seemingly grow somewhat faster, and larger. BUT, even then, we still seem to have a variety of different sizes no matter what we do. Another point we've also noticed is that earlier and frequent water changes DOES seem to help.
The (established) grow out tanks that we have which have undergravel filters and lots of plants, seem to support much closer and faster growth rate in all fry, but, of course, some do still seem to grow faster than others, and we almost always still have "runts".
Contrary to most opinions, we begin gradual water changes about the time we begin to see fins. So far, our routine has been to spawn in a covered shoe-box sized plastic container (with some plant, and IAL treated aged water), and at about 10-15 days we transfer the young fry into a 10 gal. tank already set-up ("bare-bones") and aged with about 3 inches of water, and add more plants. Then, once we have increased the water level (gradually) to a depth to accomodate a corner filter, we add the filter, and again, begin 10-20% water changes from that point on, normally at least once, if not twice, weekly. Then, provided that we have an established tank with ugf ready and unoccupied, we then transfer them into that tank at about a month to month and a half old. Then from there we begin jarring the males, trying to keep the females together as long as we can, only removing the rowdy ones. Works for us, and we have LOTS of healthy growing fry. ::bettas!!!::

jparis - September 19, 2007 01:28 AM (GMT)
Due to my science background, I want to know the NAME of this hormone. Often alluded to, never named. Can we find out what this is and how it works? I haven't been able to find a name anyplace
I do know they grow faster jarred. Maybe THE HORMONE maybe less food competition. That goes the same for taking the big one out of the growout tank. One rapidly takes his place...less hormone or competition. Probably something we should know
JP ::hi::
Interesting anecdote: If you raise Guppys (or any other small fry) with your Bettas
the Bettas grow faster and more uniformly and seem relatively unaffected by growth pattern differentiation

eRRin - September 19, 2007 02:03 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (jparis @ Sep 18 2007, 06:28 PM)


Interesting anecdote: If you raise Guppys (or any other small fry) with your Bettas
the Bettas grow faster and more uniformly and seem relatively unaffected by growth pattern differentiation

That is interesting. Maybe I will add some guppy fry to my planted tank experiment and see what happens.

thebettaguy - September 19, 2007 02:25 AM (GMT)
ya i read that to but when i added guppy fry to my frys tank the guppies decided to peck on them

jparis - September 19, 2007 02:29 AM (GMT)
I put FAT guppies in my white growout tank...they had babies as Guppies do. Those fry are far more uniform than the tank next to it. Now, lots of variables...different breeding, slightly older. I started doing bigger water changes and trying new feed times. Also I did everything on earth to keep the whites uniform. I culled early and often. On moving them to their jars they took off even more but they were very even in size and fin. So the project continues. They are in with the baby Giants and with a spawn of Marbles...we shall see. As I have 3 spawns born on the same day, when those go to tubs I think I will do two with Guppies and the one without. These are pretty much the same lines. This was not my invention...I read it here a while ago ( cant remember who wrote it) and thought it worth a try. I'll let you know as we go on. I found no particular interaction between either speicies. The guppies stayed about midtank and the Bettas on top in the floating plants. There are also Cory and snails in each tub
JP ::hi::

thebettaguy - September 19, 2007 02:41 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
I put FAT guppies in my white growout tank...they had babies as Guppies do. Those fry are far more uniform than the tank next to it. Now, lots of variables...different breeding, slightly older. I started doing bigger water changes and trying new feed times. Also I did everything on earth to keep the whites uniform. I culled early and often. On moving them to their jars they took off even more but they were very even in size and fin. So the project continues. They are in with the baby Giants and with a spawn of Marbles...we shall see. As I have 3 spawns born on the same day, when those go to tubs I think I will do two with Guppies and the one without. These are pretty much the same lines. This was not my invention...I read it here a while ago ( cant remember who wrote it) and thought it worth a try. I'll let you know as we go on. I found no particular interaction between either speicies. The guppies stayed about midtank and the Bettas on top in the floating plants. There are also Cory and snails in each tub
JP


so they didn t fight wow either i am not feeding my babies guppies right or your betta fry are big

jparis - September 19, 2007 03:14 AM (GMT)
Yes, I'd say so. The Bettas were a 4 weeks old when the Guppies were born. My tubs are deep and allowed for layer diversification. Heavy floating plants gave the Bettas an advantage
JP

MrsSmitty - September 19, 2007 04:55 AM (GMT)
WOW, interesting test, our son is looking for a good science project, that would be a great one.

Do ::bettas!!!:: grow more uniformed in size and finnage with guppies or without? hmmmm .....

jparis - September 19, 2007 06:14 AM (GMT)
Not a good project unless we find the name of the hormone, its purpose, how it acts and why.
JP ::hi::

jparis - September 19, 2007 06:27 AM (GMT)
There are too many variables to make what we have a worthy project. The even growth could have to do with the age of the spawn...the placement of the tub in the room...the mean temperature (may be unreproducible in winter). At the time I had an ABUNDANCE of live brines shrimp, they ate like kings! I have to reproduce the findings with more reliability than one spawn that had a good start before the Guppies. And if we want to prove the existence of a hormone, we need to know the name so we can test for it. Then we need to know how it functions so we can use it or eliminate it. Maybe a good project for us with proper protocols in place but too broad and hazy for a Science Fair Project. And you would need several generations and MANY spawns in testing. Maybe he could take one aspect and turn it into something. ::yeye

jparis - September 19, 2007 06:52 AM (GMT)
came across some very interesting research. Maybe not a hormone but Groth Inhibiting FACTORS

;)
"GLH" or Growth Limiting Hormones" or "GIH" (Growth Inhibiting Hormones) are actually old terms taught to old people like me in old fisheries courses in old colleges. Because that old post was probably written by little (well, not so little really) old me, you found usage of old and inaccurate terms. My apologies; I still refer to many re-classified S.A. Cichlids as genus Cichlosoma. However, just because an old term was used does not mean the subject is fiction.

These chemicals do exist, and present quite a mystery to science; we just don't call them GLH or GIH any more. Back then, we weren't even sure they existed; we just had plenty of evidence that they did. The mystery is not in what they do and even some of the mechanics of the chemistry are obvious; the big question is why and how fish would have evolved the ability to excrete these substances in the first place. There are many theories but none have been proven. I should also like to point out that many scientists do believe that some fish do produce actual endocrine secretions that may inhibit growth in other fish in closed systems, so the term GLH may or may not be out-of-date yet.

The reason the terminology was changed from when I was getting my bachelors, was that scientists used to believe these were true hormones, secreted by the endocrine system. Back then, we only had clues to their existence, not actual fact (as I said, I'm old). However, it is now believed these chemicals are exocrine in nature; being by-products of metabolism, so they are now referred to as "substances" instead of hormones.

We now know of two "types" of these substances; GIS (Growth Inhibiting Substances) and GSS (Growth Stimulating Substances).

I'll add this quotation contribution to the thread.

Robert Fenner is one of many beloved and highly-regarded aquarium gurus, and author of The Conscientious Aquarist as well as many other texts and articles. His website, Wet Web Media is one of the best educational sites out there and is highly recommended to all. This is from Robert Fenner's FAQ at his website, Wet Web Media :


Quote:
Do fish grow only as large as their genetic capability and physical environment allows? Well, sort of. Metabolite effects, are often more rate/size limiting. Say Whaaa?

Under my files of least favorite "here we go again" pet-fish urban myths to re-hash and debunk is, "are there growth inhibiting/stimulating substances?" Yes, yes, and yes, and yes! they are important and interesting as all heck. Let's tackle what G.I.S.and G.S.S(ubstances) are, what they do to and for your wet pets, what you can/should do about this new or reinforced knowledge . . .

. . . Many exocrine (versus endocrine) substances have been isolated/identified to have G.I.S. and/or G.S.S. effects. Ammonia-derived metabolites, amino acids and combinations of A.A.s, and most notably short chain fatty acids, have been demonstrated to accelerate/retard the individual growth and behaviors of many groups of fishes.

Most "advanced" (old and wrinkled?) aquariologists know the practical whys and wherefores (consequences) of these substances. Some highlights:

1) Everything else being equal (that is, no food, gas, physical space, filtration, lighting, temperament, other limitations) some same-species fish substances:

A) restrict spawn sizes, differential growth rates of individuals and groups of individuals, further:

B) limiting their subsequent reproductive viability, and even:

C) the smaller (runt) individuals survival rate (demise).

2) Mixing species often lessens the pheromonal stunting effects of a single species alone.
3) Boiling the water, leaving it to age (for weeks), dissipates the responsible compounds.

4) Removal of some or all of the larger members of a spawn or population spurs the growth/development of the next larger individual(s).

5) Some of these materials have beneficial and antagonistic impacts. That is, using "old water" has shown healing and growth-positive actuation compared with absolutely fresh (i.e. no-same-species-chemical secretions) water

6) That frequent massive to partial water changes and effective chemical filtration lessen these effects.

Why? Tell Me Why?:

Towards what possible ends would/should organisms produce such self-limiting secretions/excretions. Several reasons come to mind: 1) To preclude over-crowding and loss of the whole population due to food, oxygen/carbon dioxide limitations, other controlling factors, in the otherwise absence of other species competition or predatory pressures. And I'll leave it up to you to decide whether this one should have been mentioned first, 2) the ole Chucky Darwin Natural Selection (long may it wave?). By having the most humongous citizens beat out the less-humongous as a gauge of "fitness", may enhance the overal survivability of the species.

Where's this Stuff Come From?:

Principally growth stimulating/retarding substances have been found, and presumably are released by way of, body slime, excretory discharges from the anus and gills, and traumatic damage to the organism in general. This last category will explore in our next visit as Schreckstoffes: Alarm Substances of Fishes.

Closing: (Sort of):

So... What's an average pet-fish-ichthyologist to do, anyhow? Mainly, not worry too much; at least not more than their benefiting from their aquatic experience. Actually there are (to my understanding) only a couple or three "things to do" to ameliorate the cumulative negative effects of metabolite build up:

1) Try to selectively filter/change these compounds. Various carbons and clinoptilolites (e.g. zeolite) have showed various positive results in removal of ammonia salts (see Konstantinov et al. re Cyprinus carpio (koi) and Brachydanio rerio (zebra danios) experiments). Still gotta plug skimmer/protein skimmers, with or without ozone et alia embellishments.

2) Serial dilution through, Yes, my favorite: FREQUENT PARTIAL WATER CHANGES; Yay! Certainly the best, least expensive, effective means. Oh, semi-lastly,

3) Flood the system with complementary chemicals. Live plants, a mix of communities of macro and micro-organisms, the whole "life'juice" of the system... the more complex and complete, larger, the better. Live plants, algae, generally all organisms investigated also have their phytohormones et al. affecting/influencing their own and other species. The more these are integrated and functioning, the more naturally homogeneous and self-stabilizing (homeostatic) your system will be. Therefore the argument for linking your tanks together, use live plants, live rock, etc, and finally, lastly

4) The usual harangue about mis/over-feeding. The more glop tossed in, the worse. Feed sparingly, at correct intervals, of useful foods. Are you feeding for growth or maintenance or what?

Biblio. et More: Mainly hobbyist inclusions for historical reasons.

Anon. 1988. Stunt Work. T.F.H. citation of Daniel Heath and Derek Roff, "Test of Genetic Differentiation in Growth of Stunted and Nonstunted Populations of Yellow Perch and Pumpkinseed". Transactions of the Am. Fish. Soc. [116(1):98-102]

Drickamer, L.C. Pheromones: Behavioral & Biochemical Aspects. Adv. Comp. Environ. Physiol. 3, 1989, pp.269-348.

Fenner, Bob-O. 1989. Frequent Partial (what else?) Water Changes. FAMA 4/89. Some self-aggrandizing citation now!

Konstantinov, A.S. & M. Yu Pelipenko. Use of zeolite to remove toxic substances from nitrogen metabolism of fishes. J. Ichthyol., vol. 23, no. 6, pp 159-161, 1983.

Langhammer, Jim. 1976. G.I.S. - G.P.S. - Optimum Crowding, A Possible Synthesis. Tropic Tank Talk. Various issues during the year.

Sprenger, Kappy. 1974. Growth Inhibiting Secretions. Colorado Aquarist. Jan. 1974. Reprint of the original from San Francisco Aquarium Soc.
Stacey, N.E. Role of hormones and pheromones in fish reproductive behavior, An evolutionary perspective. Prentice Hall, Inc. Englewood Cliffs, N.J. 1987, pp. 1-350

jparis - September 19, 2007 06:59 AM (GMT)
Sprenger, Kappy. 1974. Growth Inhibiting Secretions. Colorado Aquarist. Jan. 1974. Reprint of the original from San Francisco Aquarium Soc.

Does anyone have access to this work? This is probably where we need to start
What do you think GRB?

jparis - September 19, 2007 07:11 AM (GMT)
Sorry forgot to add
this work was found in Aquarium Pro
http://www.aquariumpros.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1457
:blink:

bettas4me - September 19, 2007 09:00 AM (GMT)
I find that guy's theory about "by-products of metabolism" easier for my feeble old mind to wrap around than the "horomone theory". One nagging question still remains in my mind, "why do the "horomones" or "substances" only effect certain fish from the spawn and not others?" "Why do the larger fish continue to grow........ why aren't they stunted too?" The only reasoning I can come up with is that some of the fish are either "genetically" of just "physically" stronger than others, making them less succeptable to the "stunting" effects of the horomone/substances. For example, I've had fish that would start getting sick the minute the water conditions would start "going south", whereas the fish in the jars on either side of them goes through the exact same conditions time after time and seemingly never gets sick. I also believe that the bigger, stronger fry kinda "bully" their way through feeding time and between them, consume the lion's share of the meal leaving the others a bit under fed, thus compounding the situation, because when the larger fry are removed, the others will usually start growing at an increased rate.

I would subscribe to the bully theory only, except for the fact that constant water changes will enhance their growth and lack of, will slow it, so apparently there's something in the water that water changes removes or at least dilutes that can slow the growth.

I find it very interesting that the addition of other fish and plants seem to nullify or at least diminish the stunting effects.

Until someone can prove that it's either horomones or by-products of metabolism, the one constant remains............. waterchanges, waterchanges, and more waterchanges are the key to sustained and constant growth and a healthy betta.

bettafan - September 19, 2007 10:16 AM (GMT)
Not to disagree to any of the above post, but again water changes seem to be the end result for lowering this effect if indeed it is expelled. I found from my own experiences that uncrowding helps very much, I have taken fry that where in a tank moved them to another tank that did have fish in it that where jarred that same day. And put the fry into that tank. Noting without a water change, This tank held fry that where stunted or runts, so the unknown substance should have been in the water. The fry after being jarred took off and quicly caught up to the remaining fry,

The fry I moved from one tank with there own runts went into the second tank, where they began to grow and catch up to there sibs, this was in only a matter of 5 days, when it became evident they where accelerating in there growth.

My point is ,, same water from a tank that held its own runts, and the new runts took off in it. Water changes being consitant in either tank. Would the excretion be only affected on the fry from the original tank, I wouldnt think so. The only difference was that I was putting less fry into both tanks, less crowding =faster and equal growth. That is why I go with crowding over excrettions. Granted not very scientific but my experience. It would seem that the competition for food, space also plays a big part in growth of betta fish. JMHO

GrandRiverBetta - September 19, 2007 01:30 PM (GMT)
Let's clarify at it's root what a hormone is. It is not a substance in and of itself. It is a type of substance that carries signals to cell and tissue structures (in the case of our discussion exocrine structures). The most common hormones are peptides, or protein strings. And peptides are realignments of the base amino acid sequences. So that being said then a hormone is simply a specific convergence of amino acids performing a specialized job function.

I apologize for using the Koi example but most research has been done on koi and goldfish. In these cases, it is the amino acid combination thiomine that causes growth-inhibition. The peptide modification is specifically called thiaminase.

It is my position that this or another amino acid convergence is what causes the GIH.

The banter about water changes makes perfect sense from this angle. Regardless of how the GIH is created and emitted, the more water changes, the less of a concentration, the less impact on the community. This also explains why a fish separated from the community is not impacted regardless of water changes since the GIH is targeting other members of the species and not itself.

jparis - September 19, 2007 01:36 PM (GMT)
So, I'm thinking that the large fish excretes a exocrine compound that states to the others "Its MY food...ALL of it!!!!! signed Bubba!!!! The rest become nervous, don't eat and expand energy. He is not affected because its his "message".Keeping in mind we have an aggressive species, it could be a very scarey message. By WATER CHANGES we reduce the message to "I's my food" to which the rest can respond with a quick look around and say "Not over here". By adding another species with their own message, it could be all mixed up and the fry only hear "Food" Once jarred, no competition, no expanse of energy. endless available food and NO chemical messages
I can buy into this totally. GROWTH INHIBITING FACTORS yes, Un-named Mistery Hormone, no
I like it. Lets look in this direction.
Also its nice to know we were doing all the right things. We just were using the wrong set of words. Now go change your water!
JP ::floweryou::

GrandRiverBetta - September 19, 2007 01:57 PM (GMT)
Exactly my point. I might modify one thing. I think the GIH actually physically modifies the "weaker" (i.e., smaller) fry. Basically, acting as an appetite-suppresant. The addition of additional species must cause one of two things to occur. It either nullifies the original GIH or modifies the GIH.

If it modifies the GIH even a small bit, the intent of the original GIH can be completely lost.

One other option is that the inclusion of other species suppresses the emission of the GIH in the first place (i.e., Nullification).

jparis - September 19, 2007 02:06 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
In these cases, it is the amino acid combination thiomine that causes growth-inhibition. The peptide modification is specifically called thiaminase.



Name your sources Sir!
I cant find anything that relates Thiaminase to grown inhibiting. I am undoubtedly looking in the wrong places. You are going to make me take a course in Proteomics aren't you! I'm just an old geologist...youre making my head hurt!
:blink:

jparis - September 19, 2007 02:09 PM (GMT)
OH GRB,
I like your last post! We need to find that compound and market it!!!! I think we are very close here and I think this is a ton of fun! Thanks for the Brain Run!
JP

Smitty - September 19, 2007 02:11 PM (GMT)
I got it!!!
(Smitty's) Scientific name for it: Alphabettastuntrestuvem excretement. In other words, pissin' on the little guy.
:lmao: :LOL:: :lmao: :LOL:: :lmao:

Sorry, couldn't help it. :D

Since this is a very interesting subject / study, I'm really getting into this, thus, I'm making further observations:

I'm not sure it's entirely a feeding/eating issue ... reason being, I'm looking in my fry tank, and after feeding, yes, I do see a few more aggressively eating Betta. However, ALL the fry will have swollen (full) bellies, even down to the smallest fry in the tank (unless they're just dumb, and don't have sense enough to find and eat the food), therefore my conclusion is that they are ALL eating, but something is preventing the smaller ones from growing as fast as the larger ones.
In tanks that I perform massive water changes, the fry grow faster, and more uniformly ... while tanks that I perform minimal water changes in grow at a much slower pace.
So, I can only summize that ... "it's something in the water". :lol: :D ;)

jparis - September 19, 2007 02:21 PM (GMT)
Well, we have a scary message...they grab a bite to eat but are totally stress that Bubba is going to wack them ALL THE TIME. In the wild, urine messages left by big cats are designed to stress other big cats into leaving an area. Could we have the same thing with no place to go? Although they eat some, our babies may not be able to utilize all the food they consume because the are so stressed. It would be like trying to work with someone yelling at you all the time! Poor babies
JP

GrandRiverBetta - September 19, 2007 02:57 PM (GMT)
Kimura, Y. (1987) Occurrence of thiaminase II inSaccharomyces cerevisiae. Experientia 43(8)

Nutrient Requirements of Fish (1993), Board on Agriculture

Onderstepoort J Vet Res 1989 Jun;56(2):145-6. Thiaminase activities and thiamine content of Pteridium aquilinum, Equisetum ramosissimum, Malva parviflora, Pennisetum clandestinum and Medicago sativa.

http://www.jem.org/cgi/reprint/95/1/39.pdf

Bear in mind, these discuss thiaminase as a GIH. I believe this could or could not be the GIH in Betta Splendens. Just an example of a GIH in marine situations, et al

jparis - September 19, 2007 03:06 PM (GMT)
Thank you Sir
I'm looking up class schedules now! Did you ever wake up and think"There's a LOT of shit I dont know!!!!"
What a good way to start the day!
:blink: :blink: :blink:




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